True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

You need to respond to the following Jason, rather than ignore it by sidetracking away from it, it is after all where our fundamental disagreement lies

Do you really think this refers to the mosaic law? Paul is speaking of crossing over from being a slave of righteousness to a slave of holiness, he is definatley referring to the moral law.
I will put up romans ch 7 to prove the point concerning Pauls view:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us,Iso that we bore fruit for death.6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code Rom 7:4-6

So which law is Paul referring to in the above? Which laws did sin use to arouse sinful passions in Paul;

Well in the next five verses Paul tells us, for he gives an example of how sin used a law to arouse sinful passions in him, he is giving a personal example as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7-11

So the example Paul gave of the commandment that aroused sinful passions in him, the example he gave as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness was Thou shalt not covet, one of the Ten Commandments

In my view Jason, you would do well to graciously accept it, rather than seek to contradict and undermine scripture

Jason0047 said:

I am limited on time. I have to work. But I did edit my post above to show you that Romans 7 is not what you think it means.

Anyways, I gotta run.
May God bless you.


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I find it very sad Jason, that rather than yield to scripture you will go to any lengths to cling to your misguided belief. Rom 7 means exactly what it says, no matter how hard you try and do gymnastics with the text!

Jason0047 said:

I will address this a little later. Right now, I gotta run. I will be back. But before I give a more fuller explaination with Scripture, please know that in the bulk of Romans 7, Paul was speaking from his perspective as a Jew who struggled in obeying the Law before he became a Christian. This is evident if you compare Romans 7:14 with Romans 8:2. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So which is it? Does Paul have a dual personality? For Paul even says in Romans 7:1 that he speaks to them that know the Law. This is his audience. And Paul gives the solution to his struggle at the end of the chapter. That solution is Jesus Christ.


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Of course Paul was speaking of his time as a Pharisee in Rom ch7. That is why he could give the example he did as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness! He didn't live under the law as a Christian. That is no answer to refute Paul's belief we die to the whole law unto righteousness, or explain away what rom 7 is telling us

Jason0047 said:

I am limited on time. I have to work. But I did edit my post above to show you that Romans 7 is not what you think it means. Please refresh the page and re-check Post #101 again.

Anyways, I gotta run.
May God bless you.


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May God bless you too Jason

Jason0047 said:

I want you to read the chapter with no agenda or with a thought of what you believe. For I just re-read the chapter again. What is it telling us. It is addressing the problem of obedience to the Law of Moses alone as a source of salvation (Which is something I don't believe). Paul talks about how he once struggled to keep the Law by his own effort and it was an utter failure. Paul needed a Savior to cleanse him of his past sin to help him to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (Where there is no Condemnation) (Romans 8:1). But does that mean one can continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul already answered that question with, "God forbid" in Romans 6:1. Meaning, a believer cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound. Paul forbids it. In fact, Paul says several times in Scripture that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. He says be not deceived on that matter.

In fact, Paul says we are to obey certain moral laws that were a part of the Old Law (See Romans 13:8-10).



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I don't need to read the chapter again with no agenda it is crystal clear as to what it is saying.
In verses 4-6 Paul stresses the need to die to a law of righteousness. He states the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law. And we must die to what once bound us and be led according to the spirit not the written code(law)

In the next five verses paul plainly gives an example from his own life of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. He is speaking of his time as a Pharisee. The example he gave was Thou shalt not covet which is one of the Ten Commandments

I have to say with no malice towards you personally. This is the problem debating on websites such as these. It does not matter how plain the truth is written, people will not accept the scriptures for they insist on clinging to their own beliefs, and they will seek any argument they can rather than admit the truth.
The chapter is of the struggle to keep the moral law, most on another website I frequent fully understand that
Why would Paul stress the need to die to the legalistic law when he said he faultlessly obeyed it Phil3:6 It is not credible Jason

As I don't believe you will accept the obvious this discussion is surely becoming pointless. I will repeat once more
Grace is not a licence to sin it is the empowerment to overcome sin.

I hope some who visit this thread will take the time to read what I now put up.

It is better to understand the message than simply quote the literal letter:


Don’t try to be good enough


If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence

stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?

Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.

There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

Now suppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night and becomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He has forgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight because Jesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. He has hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not as yet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flying start as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo” sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.

So he sets out on the Christian walk. He is convicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on his heart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goes out with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantily clad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as she stands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Though he previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughts concerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t have those kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.

A couple of days later, he is out again with friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. This time the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts, therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells on them a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worse than he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have to stop.

The next evening he is watching television. A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Week after week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her a second glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirs up a hornet’s nest in his mind.

Over the next few weeks the excitement grows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impure thoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became a Christian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections in his life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt God immediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not so confident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?

The excitement women stir in him mounts, it becomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now daily pleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries his hardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. It is like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come to nothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because they wouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.

Eventually he finds the excitement that women stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spends far less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by his failed efforts to resist.

The final straw comes when he hires out a pornographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed. In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became a Christian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such as the ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed, convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesus died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, he couldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.

Now this young man became a Christian. He was immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on the young man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improper thoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, he would not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previously saw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious of our sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the light is turned on. So the young man earnestly desired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, which is basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stop sinning. It cannot, friend, for by its definition, it is a nature that desires to break the law of God.

Now why did such fear and excitement overcome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of this highest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improper thoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) of hell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battle for the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attached to it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature, and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of the battle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitement overcame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had a field day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.

You see, friend, there is no faith in fear, and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If that young man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins when improper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed any great risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have never overcome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been no high stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not stand on a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasing lust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had the young man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather than trying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and would not have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free of the sin in his heart. That would not change if he had looked to Christ and stood by faith in Him. He would still have hated the sin and wanted to be free of it, but he would not have let the sin condemn him.

Now we can say the young man would have felt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he died spiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, through the commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, and good. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God.

Now, friend, listen to the words of Paul in Romans 7:9-13. He is speaking of a time the law came to him when he came of age to make a commitment to God. This would have been before his conversion to Christianity, therefore:


Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin (consciousness) sprang to life and I died.I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. (NIV)

Cont


You see, friend, Paul the Pharisee, and the young man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be good enough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sin according to the law’s requirements.

Now you may say, Paul was a one off, and the young man is a fictitious story. Well let us look first at the Pharisees, the religious party to which Paul belonged before he converted to Christianity.

The leaders of the Pharisees gave all the outward signs of being holy, God-fearing people. They attended all the synagogue meetings and knew the literal words of the then-scriptures inside and out. They tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin and did good

deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had extramarital affairs, or smoked I imagine if smoking had been invented then. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets their forefathers murdered and said, “We would never have acted as they did.” Yet it was not enough. Jesus said they did not even know His Father, and He reserved his harshest criticisms for them. So why was Jesus so upset with the Pharisees? I would like us to look at a few of the comments He made to them, beginning with John 5:45: “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.” (NIV)

When Jesus said the Pharisees’ hopes were set on Moses, He was saying the Pharisees pinned their hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law given to Moses at Sinai. Now you may wonder, What is wrong with that? God gave the law to the people. If they had obeyed it, they would have been considered righteous in His sight. That is true, but the Pharisees made fundamental mistakes as we shall see from the words of Jesus in Matthew 23:27-28:


Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. (NIV)


Now we read of what happened to Paul when he hinged his hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law. He said in Philippians 3:6 that he was faultless as a Pharisee when it came to keeping the legalistic laws, but in Romans 7:8 he said he could not obey, “Thou shalt not covet.” Legalistic laws may at times be tiresome to keep, but it is not so hard to go through rite, ritual, and ceremony, is it? However, they are laws that concern what can be seen on the outside. “Thou shalt not covet,” however is a law you can break without anyone but you and God knowing about it, isn’t it? You can desire what you should not desire, you can covet as much as you want, and no other person has to know you are doing it. So you can look righteous and clean on the outside, but at the same time be full of everything unclean on the inside. Now if the young man had decided to continue going to church, would he not have been forced to appear righteous on the outside while full of uncleanliness on the inside? Would he not have had to act as Jesus said the Pharisees of His day acted?

But friend, the worst thing of all concerning the Pharisees can be found in the following words of Jesus in Matthew 23:2-4:


The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)


You see, the Pharisees told the people how they must live according to the law; however, they could not attain themselves to what they demanded of others. So they crushed the people with heavy loads, but offered them no help once they had crushed them. The people would have seen the Pharisees appear on the outside as such Godly people, and would have imagined the inside of the cup was the same. And when the Pharisees were most insistent that others fully obey the law, the ordinary folk would have imagined that the Pharisees, who appeared so very righteous on the outside, had already attained on the inside what they demanded of others. Yet we know this was not the truth, according to Jesus’ words. The people would have become terribly crushed, don’t you think? For they would have known on the inside they were not perfect according to their flesh. Yet the Pharisees would have been demanding almost sinless perfection. The result must be the people would have felt much guilt and condemnation. That, friend, is why Jesus reserved his harshest words for the Pharisees.

Now if that young man had remained in church, he would have had no choice but to promote a Gospel message he could not himself live up to, correct? This, friend, is the result of trying to attain Heaven by being good enough. I hope the words of Jesus convince you of the folly of taking such a road.

Now King David lived under the Old Covenant. God said he was a man after His own heart. This is what David said, according to Psalm 103:10: “He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.” (NIV)

We can see here that David was not a proud person who believed he would attain Heaven by being good enough. For he said God does not treat people according to what they deserve. Yet a Pharisee and the young Christian believed God would treat them according to their personal goodness under the law. David did not rely ultimately on obedience to the law, however. For he said Psalm 52:8, “I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.” (NIV)

David loved God, and knew he was secure in God’s love for him. Because he knew he was secure in God’s love, he wanted to obey out of love for God, not because he thought he could have a true righteousness of his own by doing so. David knew no such righteousness existed. He said in Psalm 143:2, “Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.” (NIV)

You see, friend, no one has ever been truly righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it. Now there is a huge difference between David wanting to obey out of love and the Pharisees wanting to try to obey because they thought they could be good enough. David knew his bottom line before God. He trusted in God’s unfailing love for him; the Pharisees did not. By their attitude, they neglected what mattered most. Jesus said in Luke 11:42, “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God.” (NIV)

You see, if you believe you have to strive to be good enough for God, you will neglect the love, mercy, and compassion of God in the process. You don’t need it if you think you can be righteous under your own effort, do you? It is then all about what you have achieved − what you have done. You would not then depend on God’s unfailing love for you as David did.

Let us consider the young man who walked away crushed. Would he have believed in the love, mercy, and compassion of God? If your parents told you when you were a child that unless you performed almost perfectly under their rules they would cast you out, would you have believed they were loving parents? You wouldn’t, would you? The young man believed ultimately he could not be good enough; therefore, he never knew how great God’s love was, for he never followed the true Gospel.

You see, friend, King David understood the truth. The bottom line under the Old Covenant was God’s unfailing love, and Christ showed that unfailing love to us under the New Covenant by dying for our sins at Calvary. For the God who initiated the Old Covenant, also initiated the new one; therefore, David hinged his hope of eternal life on God’s unfailing love, whereas the Pharisees, as did Paul before he converted to Christianity, hinged their hope of eternal life on being good enough. David, therefore, delighted in obeying God’s laws out of love for God, whereas the Pharisees became full of hypocrisy, wickedness, and everything unclean on the inside.

Now we have looked at the Pharisees, but is the young man really just a fictitious story that would never happen in real life? I know of Christian counsellors who have spent much time with people who have become Christians and ended up consumed by lust. No, friend, tragically that is all too often real life.

So I feel I must repeat to those of you who believe you could not be a Christian because you know you could never be good enough for God. God does not want people who think they can be good enough. He wants people who acknowledge they cannot be good enough: people who will praise Him and thank him for the unfailing love He showed by sending His Son to die for us undeserving sinners.


CHAPTER 6

Jason0047 said:

I don't have time to read all of what you wrote at the moment. But I did glean one thing about how you believe a man should not strive to overcome the sin of sexual immorality. If that is the case, then why does Jesus use scare tactics of threatening a person's entire body to be cast into hellfire if their right offends them in regards to looking upon a woman in lust? Why does Paul bother to tell us to flee fornication or sexual immorality?


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It would be better to read the whole chapter before commenting Jason, otherwise you are commenting without having all the facts at your disposal.

Jason0047 said:

I don't have time to read all of what you wrote at the moment. But I did glean one thing about how you believe a man should not strive to overcome the sin of sexual immorality. If that is the case, then why does Jesus use scare tactics of threatening a person's entire body to be cast into hellfire if their right offends them in regards to looking upon a woman in lust? Why does Paul bother to tell us to flee fornication or sexual immorality?


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Jesus was limited in what he could teach the disciples in regard to sin, righteousness and judgement for he said they could not yet bear such knowledge. Therefore to understand these things you have to understand the message contained in the Epistles, mainly of Paul

Jason0047 said:

I don't have time to read all of what you wrote at the moment. But I did glean one thing about how you believe a man should not strive to overcome the sin of sexual immorality.

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The above would definitely be a work of the law. Paul says we do not seek to be justified by works of the law but by faith in Christ Gal 2:16&17 We trust in Christ in order to cross over from being slaves of sin when we come to him into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness.

stuart lawrence said:

The above would definitely be a work of the law. Paul says we do not seek to be justified by works of the law but by faith in Christ Gal 2:16&17 We trust in Christ in order to cross over from being slaves of sin when we come to him into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness.

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You said this in response to Jason's post, which stated, "But I did glean one thing about how you believe a man should not strive to overcome the sin of sexual immorality."

Do you really think this? A work of the law? Really?

Here is what Paul actually said in 1 Thessalonians 4:3 -
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

And we read this in Acts 15:20 -
but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

And we read this in regards to our sanctification (holiness) in 1 Thessalonians 4:3 -
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

A work of the law is working to observe the law, working to observe the law is striving not to sin, for sin is breaking the law of God. In regard to seeking to be justified before God Paul is clear we do not seek this justification by works of the law but by faith in Christ gal2:16&17.
The young man Jason is referring to sought justification by works of the law

You have to discern the difference between someone becoming a christian and seeking to justify their Christianity by works of the law, and someone who is committing wilfull sin they want to commit. The two are entirely different

Obedience comes from faith(rom1:5) not from works of the law to seek a righteousness before God. Paul continually stresses the christan must die to such a view

stuart lawrence said:

A work of the law is working to observe the law, working to observe the law is striving not to sin, for sin is breaking the law of God. In regard to seeking to be justified before God Paul is clear we do not seek this justification by works of the law but by faith in Christ gal2:16&17.
The young man Jason is referring to sought justification by works of the law

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So, would you call yourself a lawless person?

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