True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

Jason0047 said:

Paul's reply to the question whether or not we are sinners is a.... "no."

So I agree with Paul.


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But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

Im sorry Jason but you are hopelessly lost here

stuart lawrence said:

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

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Jason0047 said:

It's a question and not a statement of fact. I can say,

"Am I kitty cat because I drink milk and purr like a kitten?

Absolutely not!"​

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You are hopelessly lost with this aren't you. Because you don't understand the process of justification/sanctification

Jason0047 said:

It's a question and not a statement of fact. I can say,

"Am I kitty cat because I drink milk and purr like a kitten?

Absolutely not!"​

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But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

Now if you understood the process once a person gets saved, you could explain the verses to me, but you don't, so you cant

Jason0047 said:

And your failing to explain how Paul denies he is a sinner by answering the question with a ..... "no."

Asking a question and stating a fact are two different things.


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Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker


During the justification process we are evident sinners, for the process takes time to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness. Now how would that look to someone who didn't understand the Gospel. They would see someone rejoicing in their salvation while still having evident sin in their life. What would they think. Christ must promote sin. Paul says this is absolutely not true. But if he rebuilt what he had destroyed, and once again lived under a law of righteousness(striving to defeat the sin to be justified before God) he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker, for sin is transgression of the law

Why could you not give that answer Jason?

Jason0047 said:

Also, your belief here is contradictory. On the one hand, you said before that a true born again believer is defined by obedience (By the fact they are not remaining in all kinds of horrible sins). Yet, on the other hand, you are now pushing the idea that we are to be found as sinners. So which is it? Are we believers who obey or are we sinners? Jesus would say, choose this day in whom ye will serve. For no man can serve two masters. For he that sins is a slave to sin. John would say, he that commits sin is of the devil. He would also say that all who do evil hate the light. This is why we have to repent of our sins and draw near to God and cleanse our hands.


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If any post of yours shows you do not understand the justification process of the Christian this is it. You can ignore it if you wish, but I am going to put a chapter of a book up explaining that justification process. It answers your post I am responding to. It is up to you if you want to know the answer or not. I would advise you read it, for what is more important to understand than the process to be set free of sin you are a slave to

Crossing over


A man stumbles into a church service one night in a desperate state. The years of drunken revelry, sleeping with woman after woman and constantly seeking to gratify the flesh have caught up with him. He is broken, alone and in despair. He would never have thought of entering a church, believing it could offer no hope for someone such as he, but for some reason he was irresistibly drawn to enter the building. He feels uncomfortable as he walks through the door. Churches aren’t for people like him but for those who have lived decent, upright lives, people who have pure hearts and minds, people who have not been corrupted as he has been by the world. To his great surprise, however, when the altar call is given, he stumbles forward to accept Christ as his Saviour.

A kindly old man chats with him after the service. He tells him a battle will now follow so that he can see victory over the sin he is a slave to. The man tells him this victory can only be won, however, by looking to Jesus and trusting that He died for him. That is the only righteousness he can have before God. The new convert considers this a very strange battle to be in, with strange rules that don’t make sense, but there is something about this kindly old man that makes the new convert trust him. He has so much love for him, a filthy rotten sinner, it exudes from every part of the man sitting next to him. The man gives the new convert a few simple scripture verses and advises him to place them in rooms in his home. Then when the battle becomes difficult, he can look to them and gain strength. The new convert takes them, along with a New Testament the old man gives him.

He walks away from the church, slightly bemused. His life has been in a terrible state for years. He is a habitual thief who has spent time in prison, he is a slave to alcohol, he swears like a trooper, and he has had many affairs. For a long time he has been desperate for a way out, but never once dreamed of turning to God. He’d imagined he would have had to live an almost perfect life or God would have cast him into hell. He was too weak for that. He had no strength left. He was broken from living a life steeped in the worst of sin. Yet now this old man was telling him all he had to do was trust Jesus. That would decide the battle ahead.

So the man starts out on his walk. As we previously discussed, some sin the new convert can immediately stop, for it has not tied itself so tightly around him that he is a slave to it. So this man determines not to steal again, which immediately brings positive fruit from his new found Christian walk. He also determines there will be no more affairs. Even the bad language immediately starts to lessen, so evidence of his change of heart by being born again is already plain to see.

The drinking is not so straightforward, however; he has been its slave for many a year. A couple of days after the man gets saved, he is sitting at home in the evening. All of a sudden a huge desire for alcohol comes over him. He has a drink, hoping to satisfy the craving, but it doesn’t. His conscience hurts him as he pours the second drink, but the pull of alcohol is fierce. By the time he takes the third drink, he is not thinking so clearly because the alcohol is having an effect. Eventually he drinks far too much before stumbling into bed.

When he wakes in the morning, he feels anguish in his heart. Things were going so well, but now he has let God down. A voice whispers in his head, You’d better give up with God, for Christians cannot go around drinking as you did last night. You can’t stop being a slave to sin and get where you need to be if you drink like that. The man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable. He knows he cannot cross over to where he needs to be if he continues to drink as he did the night before. He remembers, however, the old man telling him the night he got saved that only one thing could make him acceptable in God’s sight − faith in His Son − and that would bring him the victory. So despite his sorrow for how he acted, he determines to trust in this truth rather than dwell on his failure. It isn’t easy to do, but he perseveres. He looks to Jesus and trusts he is still saved. The voice in his head tells him he is just faking his Christianity, but the man determines to keep looking to Christ and carries on in the faith.

A couple of days later the same thing happens. The man drinks far too much and wakes up in great sorrow for his actions the night before. The voice inside his head tells him he will have to give up on Christianity now. God may have forgiven him once for drinking too much, but he won’t a second time. If he remains a Christian, he is making a mockery of the faith. He is as good as promoting sin. Once again, the man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable and logical.

He rings the kindly old man who spoke to him the night he got converted and truthfully tells him about his drinking and the voice inside his head. To his amazement the man tells him not to worry because he’s winning the battle, and Satan must be getting worried if he’s accusing him that much. He reminds him he must keep looking to Jesus and trusting he is saved because Jesus died for him, and not look to his imperfections and failures. He puts the phone down, surprised by the man’s words, though reassured by what he told him. Once again, however, he considers this battle to have strange rules that don’t seem logical at all. He has to fight his natural reasoning and understanding to hold onto faith in Christ.

For a time the lapses continue where alcohol is concerned. After each occasion, the man wakes in the morning feeling terrible because he drank so much the night before. Each time, the voice inside his head increases its accusations: “You’re just a hypocrite”; “You’re faking your Christianity”; “You can’t be a Christian and drink as you do.” Despite the accusations, however, the man clings to Christ. He trusts what the old man told him the night he was saved.

After a time something startling happens; the man finds he is becoming more able to resist the alcohol. Bit by bit he is able to markedly resist his drinking. Eventually the amount he drinks is so little it has no adverse effect on him at all. He is thrilled. That kindly old man in church was right; he was seeing the victory by faith in Christ. He praises God for what He has done for him, through Jesus.

With his mind now free from thinking about alcohol, however, another weakness is unleashed. All of a sudden his mind is flooded with impurity. A voice whispers in his ear: “You can’t be a Christian and have thoughts like that; you’re just faking it.” Satan plants a few scripture verses in the man’s head to endorse this view, for he is not averse to quoting scripture out of context when it suits him. For a second the man pauses. The voice in his head again sounds reasonable. He cannot ignore what scripture plainly states. But then he looks at the scripture verse the old man gave him that is pinned on his wall: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” He is grateful for those words and looks to Jesus, trusting he is still saved and not condemned.

The voice inside his head once again tells him he’s a hypocrite and just fooling himself, but he won’t be swayed. He has seen the victory over alcohol by faith and trusts he will have victory over the impure thoughts, as well. For a time the impure thoughts flood his mind. He keeps looking to Jesus, clinging to Him as a limpet clings to a rock. He holds onto what the man told him. He only has one righteousness in God’s sight, faith in His Son. As the battle rages, however, the voice inside his head is relentless: “You’re a hypocrite”; “You’re just faking your Christianity”; “You’re weak”; “You’re useless”; “You’re too dirty and rotten to be saved”; “You have to be pure to be a Christian, not like you are. You’re just a sinner.”

“Yes, I am a sinner!” the man finally cries out in anguish. “But Jesus died for sinners!” All of a sudden the room gets very quiet. The only sound is the traffic outside on the street. He can’t hear the voice in his head anymore; it has gone strangely quiet. The man is grateful and keeps looking to Jesus. He has gone too far now to turn back. He suddenly knows he will keep trusting no matter what happens, for Jesus is all he has. He is in a boat with Jesus, and he can only sink if Jesus sinks. The impure thoughts start to lessen, and the man is surprised by how quickly this is happening. He is seeing the victory, just like he saw victory over alcohol. By now, all his bad language has also ceased.

Satan realises this man will not be swayed from trusting Jesus died for him, so he is forced to give up, move on, and try to find someone else to devour. He will return at times to see how the man is doing and fire some arrows at him, but he has lost the main battle. He only had one thing to begin with to try to turn the sincere-of-heart convert away, and it didn’t work. Satan uses the good and holy laws of God to try to make a convert feel condemned.

The man is not perfect in the flesh. He will be a work in progress all his life, for he lives in a body of weak flesh. By faith in Christ, however, he has crossed over from offering himself as a slave of sin, to offering himself as a slave of righteousness, which leads to holiness.

Now, friend, what kind of man do you think will emerge from that battle? Well we know he won’t be a proud man, for he never won the battle; Jesus did. He just stood by faith in Him. He will love God greatly for changing a sinner such as he. He will know the great love, mercy, and compassion of God, and he will want to tell others of what God has done in his life. He will witness of the grace he has received. He will be a merciful person, for he has obtained great mercy. He will want to be faithful, for he knows God has loved him much, forgiven him much, and delivered him from the pit he was in.

Now that man never looked to the law and strove to obey it. He looked to Jesus and trusted Him. By doing so, the higher points of the perfect, holy, and righteous law of God are now evident in his life.

He was involved in the same high-stakes battle as the young man from the previous chapter, but the young man hinged everything on trying to defeat the sin (a work of the law), whereas this man hinged everything on trusting Jesus. The young man, therefore, got excited about the sin, whereas this man got excited about Jesus. The young man had followed the way of Paul the Pharisee, this man, the way of the Gospel that Paul the Christian preached in Romans 6:14: “ For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (through faith).” (NIV)

Jason0047 said:

He is talking about rebuilding that which was destroyed, i.e. the Law of Moses. Paul said himself that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). If Paul is promoting the Lord's Commandments, then by your belief, he is rebuilding that which he thought he destroyed. For Paul also essentially said, that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ (Which would include His Commandments) then they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So can a believer not forgive and be forgiven? Not according to the words of Jesus (Matthew 6:15).



Because Paul is not talking about all law in general. He is talking about the Law of Moses because he mentions "circumcision" several times in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians (of which you are ignoring). Paul in no way says.... we are not under the Law to not murder, hate, theft, lying, etc. On the contrary, Paul says those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


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If you really want to understand the process to cross over from being a slave opf sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness, read what I put up. If you don't wish to know, ok

Jason0047 said:

If you quote a snipet from the book here, I will read it (if it is short). If you are asking me to read an actual chapter on some false belief you have on Galatians, you can forget it. I know what the passage clearly says.


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The chapter shows how someone crossed over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Shouldn't take you much more than ten minutes to read

Jason0047 said:

If you quote a snipet from the book here, I will read it (if it is short). If you are asking me to read an actual chapter on some false belief you have on Galatians, you can forget it. You can simply summarize what it says in a sentence or two. I know what the passage clearly says.


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Well you wont know if it is false unless you read the chapter will you. Nor will you be able to tell me my belief is wrong if you don't read the chapter, because you wont have anything to attack. What have you to lose in reading it. If I don't think you understand the process of crossing over and I do, wouldn't you like to know what I believe?

Jason0047 said:

No, thanks. Summarize it into two or three sentences. If it is not the Bible, I am not interested.

Also, how can you be a slave to righteousness, if you are admitting to being found as a sinner as you have been pushing in Galatians?


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If you don't read the chapter, you are refusing to know the truth of how to cross over from being a slave of righteousness to a slave of holiness. It would have been quicker for you first to read it then discuss it. Personally I think you may be afraid to read it, for fear you realise it is correct

Really Jason. By the end of the chapter the man no longer gets drunk, swears, has affairs, or uses foul language. I like the way you put your slant on it, entirely untrue of course, but at least you are constant