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True Believers

Tree of Life

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Jesus in Luke 6:46 said:
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.

James 2:18 said:
I will show you my faith by my works.

For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.

Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 1 when he said:

Romans 1:21 said:
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him...

All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him? As Thomas Nagel put it:

Thomas Nagel said:
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.

If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there. Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?
 
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essentialsaltes

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For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person.

That is a view that is typically laid at the door of moral relativists, not moral subjectivists.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions

Of course they will. Just because you're a determinist doesn't mean that you make choices at random. You will give decisions some good thought, and you will arrive at the answer that you must arrive at.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view.

No, it isn't.

At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?)...

You already said that they were angry at the way life unfolded. That's not a person. I was angry at the screw that fell onto my driveway and bounced away making it hard to find. It was sort of stupid to be angry at a screw, but it doesn't require any gods to be angry at a screw. Similarly, it doesn't require any gods to be happy about that pie crust that turned out perfectly.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him?

Paraphrasing Will Rogers, I never met a god I didn't like.

But I've never met any gods.
 
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Davian

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.
Subjective morality is not a lack of morality, or lack of consensus. Strawman.
Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.
Tell me how you seek knowledge in a manner that allows for gods but does not also leave the Earth covered in giant, invisible, immaterial marshmallows. I hate driving through those when I am on the freeway.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.
If free will is an illusion, should it not feel real? How would you know?

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world.
From every objective measure to date, that would appear to be the case.

But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.
I do not see it as impossible.

Do not conflate atheism with nihilism.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 1 when he said:



All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him? As Thomas Nagel put it:



If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there. Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?
rotflmao. You are projecting.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how concerned are you that Santa will leave you a lump of coal in your stocking on Christmas?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.

This isn't a critique of ethical subjectivism per se, but of moral relativism. In any case, I think you've missed the mark. One need not live as though moral relativism is true in order to believe that it is true.

The claim seems to be that holding a certain belief necessarily translates into a certain set of behaviours, which I don't think is true at all. Many Christians sincerely believe that there exists a place called Hell where countless souls will endure everlasting torture. Yet this belief doesn't weigh on their every waking moment. They go to work, marry, have children, and carry on living even though they believe this doom exists and that they or someone they love may have to face it. That's not to say that they don't ever act on this belief by trying to "save" people, for example. It's just that, given the apparent urgency this belief would engender, many don't act as though the situation is that urgent at all.

Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.

You've assuming that they should live some other way. I'm not convinced of this. Even if their beliefs are true, there may be no other way that they can live.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

You seem to be conflating atheism with nihilism. In any case, I think you're wrong because you expect beliefs to necessarily translate into specific actions. I think beliefs may predict actions with some accuracy, but that they do not guarantee them with certainty.

All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

That simply isn't true. This is a just variation of the "There are no atheists" canard.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him?

No.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us.

Being an atheist does not imply thinking that there is no authoritative moral code.

There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world.

Except human beings, of course.

But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view.

I find it exceptionally easy.

At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?)

Myself and/or other human beings.

or grateful (grateful to whom?)

To myself for my actions, or to other human beings for their beneficial influence on my life.

live as though there is a binding moral code for all people

I do think there is one, so I'm fine there. It has nothing to do with deities.

live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok

What's so theistic about optimism? I'm optimistic about my abilities to produce constructive results.

live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained

Why not? The world has kept spinning so far with no signs of stopping. If an astronomer discovers a world-destroying asteroid heading towards the Earth, my expectations are likely to change dramatically.

live as though they had some purpose in life

My purposes are my own.

So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

My actions are perfectly consistent with my atheism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe.
So which is it you say you believe, and which is it you actually believe?
There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on.
So what is it you are telling others you believe, and what are the beliefs you act on?
There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.
So what is it you´d like to believe, and what is it that you actually believe?

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.
Most of the time I encounter myself perceiving things and acting as though the universe revolved around me. I don´t believe it does, though.



All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.
Nobody believes in God´s existence. Indeed it´s impossible to live with this believe. Not believing in a God is necessary to function in day to day life.
Sometimes it´s nice to make empty assertions.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him?
Seeing that everyone have their own god concepts (and that´s all I know) there seems to be no problem handcrafting myself a God that I like. So no.




If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there.
Possibly, you´d need to understand that not everyone is like you.
Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him?
Well, there´s this small obstacle you keep forgetting or ignoring: I don´t believe there´s a God.
Why contend with God?
You´d have to ask that a believer.
Are we mightier than he?
Don´t know about your personal god concept, but according to mainstream Christian doctrine you aren´t.
 
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quatona

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Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.
On a sidenote: Interestingly, I have found that the only ones escaping to epistemological nihilism are theists when they don´t succeed in presenting evidence for the god of their concept.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.
Well, two opposing views result in the same behaviour doesn´t allow for the conclusion that one them is true (anymore than that the other is true). At best, it would suggest that the issue is irrelevant for any practical purpose.
Of course, I - being a determinist - encounter differences in my approach towards certain issues and questions, compared to "freewillies". E.g. in that I am admitting that they can´t help believing in "free will". ;)


Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc...
I am neither angry nor grateful, I don´t live as though there were a binding moral code, I am pretty sure things will never be perfectly the way I wish they were (actually, I have never even entertained the thought), I don´t live as though I will live forever, I don´t live as though there were an externally given purpose in my life.
So please stop telling me what I believe, and how I lead my life.
This approach might be a good idea when it comes to talking to yourself, but not an invitation to a fruitful exchange of thoughts with others.
 
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Eudaimonist

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On a sidenote: Interestingly, I have found that the only ones escaping to epistemological nihilism are theists when they don´t succeed in presenting evidence for the god of their concept.

My view is that it is a ploy.

They seek to level the playing field by denying that anyone can have rationally-confident knowledge, and then make an appeal to "faith" to provide you with an escape route.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Colter

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Sincerity, that was the context of Jesus' statement that some will come and refer to the mere intellectual belief they held about God, the ceremonial compartmentalization they adhered to, wherein they could pursue a largely secular life and pay occasional homage to the God of their traditions (call home once in a while). Jesus will be compelled to say "I did not know you" because he didn't. Its not rocket science, it's not some mystic trick leaving a true seeker in constant angst, if one has a living relationship with the living God then you know it, you know you are already saved, there is no question or uncertainty about it.

If one is fence sitting then they will be defensive towards what they deem to be more conservative, fundamentalists types.




"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men’s souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man’s soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond." UB 1955
 
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DogmaHunter

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All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.


I'm living evidence that that statement couldn't be more wrong..

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him?

No.
I don't have any beef with gods (yes, plural- there are more religions then just yours), because I can't have any beef with entities I don't even consider to be real.


Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?

We certainly seem to be more real then gods.
 
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PsychoSarah

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To claim you know what other people believe better than the individuals themselves is the definition of hubris. I know for a fact that I do not believe in deities, let alone any deities associated with specific religions. I know myself well enough to say with absolute certainty, a rare thing for me to do, that I lack any belief in deities or an afterlife for that matter.
 
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Davian

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Sincerity, that was the context of Jesus' statement that some will come and refer to the mere intellectual belief they held about God, the ceremonial compartmentalization they adhered to, wherein they could pursue a largely secular life and pay occasional homage to the God of their traditions (call home once in a while). Jesus will be compelled to say "I did not know you" because he didn't. Its not rocket science, it's not some mystic trick leaving a true seeker in constant angst, if one has a living relationship with the living God then you know it, you know you are already saved, there is no question or uncertainty about it.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard Phillips Feynman
 
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Colter

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"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard Phillips Feynman

"Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that “true light which lights every man who comes into the world.” And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance."​
UB 1955
 
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quatona

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.

Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 1 when he said:



All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him? As Thomas Nagel put it:



If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there. Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?
So what I take home from this OP:
You are positing that theists and atheists, determinists and freewillers, moral objectivists and subjectivists believe the same things and behave in the same way. Their metaphysical positions make no real difference.
Which makes me wonder:
1. What would be the point, then, for you to convince people of God´s existence, of "freewill", and of the existence of objective morality?
and 2. and more importantly:
With all those recent threads from theists and moral objectivists who make out moral subjectivism, secularism and atheism as the root of all evil - where were you telling the thread starters that they could relax because their attribution was false?
 
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Ana the Ist

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.

Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 1 when he said:



All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him? As Thomas Nagel put it:



If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there. Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?

I think you should look up the psychological term "projection" and seriously consider what it means. What you've done here is taken your worldview and projected it onto others as if they couldn't possibly see things differently from what you do. In short, you're wrong. Allow me to explain the two mistakes in your O P that apply to me.

You made some assumptions about moral relativism (you called subjective morality) that simply aren't true. You said...

" At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality."

Maybe you have an example for this that you'd like to use...but since you didn't, I'll use an example. Let's say you believe in a universal moral code that says stealing is wrong. I, as a moral relativist, say that sometimes...stealing is good...it all depends on circumstances. If someone were to break into my home and steal my t.v., would I be upset? You betcha. You might think this is because of the moral outrage I feel at being stolen from...but it isn't. I'm upset because I valued that t v and it was taken from me...as humans we like to think we aren't that superficial and that it's really our righteous sense of morals that causes us to be outraged...but it isn't. How do I know this? Let's look at another example... Suppose you and a friend stopped at a burger joint to grab a quick lunch. During your meal, your friend reaches across the table and steaks a french fry off of your plate and blatantly pops it in his mouth right in front of you. Do you feel the same moral outrage that you felt when your t.v. was stolen from you? Probably not (it would be rather odd if you did...and I can assure you that i don't). Why don't you feel that overwhelming moral outrage you felt before? It's the same crime...the same "universal moral law" being broken...and yet it probably doesn't bother you in the least, you might even have a laugh about it. The reasons are pretty obvious, you never felt moral outrage....you felt loss, more specifically, the loss of something of value. When it comes to breaking into your home and taking your t.v.....the loss of the t.v. and loss of the sense of security is a powerful feeling. The loss of the french fry however, is so small you either don't notice or you don't care. Hopefully, this explains to you why moral relativists and objective moralists appear to behave similarly despite their disagreeing viewpoints.

You also said this...

"Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc."

As an atheist, if I see an injustice...I blame whoever committed it. I don't think angry or grateful are ways I've ever felt about my life. Better words would be "satisfied or dissatisfied"...and when I feel those ways about my life, I take responsibility for them...anything else would be a cop-out. I already explained why we share similar feelings about moral actions above. I don't see why you think being an atheist means you cannot be optimistic (did you look up the term "projecting" as I suggested?) Science tells me the world will keep spinning, i don't need a god for that. I also am aware I'll die one day, I don't see the problem with that. I also see no reason why as an atheist I cannot find my own purposes in life, or why you think you need a god to give you purpose. (Again, projection)

I know the ideas of thinking for yourself, taking responsibility for your own life and actions, finding your own way and purposes probably all seem "near impossible to live by" since you've spent your life having others fulfill these roles for you...but I can only assure you that not only is it possible to live this way...it's actually quite liberating and empowering. To quote a lot of christians on this forum, "It's something you have to experience to understand."
 
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Davian

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"Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that “true light which lights every man who comes into the world.” And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance."​
UB 1955

"There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing." - NMS, on alt.atheism
 
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Colter

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"There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some way. The only reason that believers claim that god "can't" be detected in this way is because god *isn't* detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing." - NMS, on alt.atheism

God has been quite detectable to billions and billions throughout the ages of the evolution of mankind. He's not detectable to you because you don't desire for God to be in your life. God absolutely refuses to violate the mind arena of choice that he gifted you with.

"Jesus, Gonod, and Ganid made five trips away from Rome to points of interest in the surrounding territory. On their visit to the northern Italian lakes Jesus had the long talk with Ganid concerning the impossibility of teaching a man about God if the man does not desire to know God. They had casually met a thoughtless pagan while on their journey up to the lakes, and Ganid was surprised that Jesus did not follow out his usual practice of enlisting the man in conversation which would naturally lead up to the discussion of spiritual questions. When Ganid asked his teacher why he evinced so little interest in this pagan, Jesus answered:

“Ganid, the man was not hungry for truth. He was not dissatisfied with himself. He was not ready to ask for help, and the eyes of his mind were not open to receive light for the soul. That man was not ripe for the harvest of salvation; he must be allowed more time for the trials and difficulties of life to prepare him for the reception of wisdom and higher learning. Or, if we could have him live with us, we might by our lives show him the Father in heaven, and thus would he become so attracted by our lives as sons of God that he would be constrained to inquire about our Father. You cannot reveal God to those who do not seek for him; you cannot lead unwilling souls into the joys of salvation. Man must become hungry for truth as a result of the experiences of living, or he must desire to know God as the result of contact with the lives of those who are acquainted with the divine Father before another human being can act as the means of leading such a fellow mortal to the Father in heaven. If we know God, our real business on earth is so to live as to permit the Father to reveal himself in our lives, and thus will all God-seeking persons see the Father and ask for our help in finding out more about the God who in this manner finds expression in our lives.”​
 
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bhsmte

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There's what we say we believe and then there's what we actually believe. There's what we tell others (and ourselves) that we believe and then there's the beliefs that we act on. There's even what we'd like to believe and then what we actually believe.

Do we know what we truly believe? Not usually. How can we find out what it is that we truly believe? The beliefs that we actually hold are the beliefs that we act on. How we live shows what we actually believe, no matter what we say or think we believe.



For instance, one can say that they don't believe in any sort of universally binding moral code. One can claim to be a radical moral subjectivist claiming that what's right for one person is not binding on another person. But no one lives like this is true. At the end of the day they're going to be offended by personal injustices suffered just like someone who believes in a universal code of morality. They'll seek justice for themselves just like the rest of the world. So, though they claim to believe one thing, their emotional responses and actions plainly show that they believe something entirely different.

Another can claim to believe something like "we can know nothing" and be a radical epistemological skeptic. But no one can usually live this way. At the end of the day they'll go about seeking knowledge and acting upon assumed knowledge just like the person who believes that they can know things. So, though they claim to be an epistemological skeptic their actions show otherwise.

One might claim to be a hard determinist. There is no free will, no legitimate choices. All that happens is predetermined by impersonal forces larger than us. But it's pretty difficult to live as if this were true. At the end of the day they'll deliberate over decisions just like the person who believes in legitimate choices. They claim to believe one thing but their actions show otherwise.

Another might claim to be an atheist. There is no God, no architect of history, no person in control behind the forces of nature, no authoritative moral code, no plan for history, and no one ultimately watching out for us or taking care of us. There's no one to blame for the injustices we experience in the world. But, again, it's near impossible to live with such a view. At the end of the day this person will be angry with the way life has unfolded (angry at whom?), or grateful (grateful to whom?), live as though there is a binding moral code for all people, live with a vague sense of optimism that things are going to be ok, live expecting the world to keep spinning and for their lives to be sustained, live as though they had some purpose in life, etc... So they may claim to believe one thing but their actions show that they believe something totally different.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 1 when he said:



All people believe in God's existence. Indeed it's impossible to live without this belief. It's necessary to function in day to day life.

Isn't it true that your main beef with God is that you don't like him? As Thomas Nagel put it:



If so, this is understandable. I've certainly been there. Why not just reconcile with God rather than spend your life in an estranged relationship with him? Why contend with God? Are we mightier than he?

"All people believe in God's existence"?

How do you support this claim?
 
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bhsmte

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God has been quite detectable to billions and billions throughout the ages of the evolution of mankind. He's not detectable to you because you don't desire for God to be in your life. God absolutely refuses to violate the mind arena of choice that he gifted you with.

"Jesus, Gonod, and Ganid made five trips away from Rome to points of interest in the surrounding territory. On their visit to the northern Italian lakes Jesus had the long talk with Ganid concerning the impossibility of teaching a man about God if the man does not desire to know God. They had casually met a thoughtless pagan while on their journey up to the lakes, and Ganid was surprised that Jesus did not follow out his usual practice of enlisting the man in conversation which would naturally lead up to the discussion of spiritual questions. When Ganid asked his teacher why he evinced so little interest in this pagan, Jesus answered:

“Ganid, the man was not hungry for truth. He was not dissatisfied with himself. He was not ready to ask for help, and the eyes of his mind were not open to receive light for the soul. That man was not ripe for the harvest of salvation; he must be allowed more time for the trials and difficulties of life to prepare him for the reception of wisdom and higher learning. Or, if we could have him live with us, we might by our lives show him the Father in heaven, and thus would he become so attracted by our lives as sons of God that he would be constrained to inquire about our Father. You cannot reveal God to those who do not seek for him; you cannot lead unwilling souls into the joys of salvation. Man must become hungry for truth as a result of the experiences of living, or he must desire to know God as the result of contact with the lives of those who are acquainted with the divine Father before another human being can act as the means of leading such a fellow mortal to the Father in heaven. If we know God, our real business on earth is so to live as to permit the Father to reveal himself in our lives, and thus will all God-seeking persons see the Father and ask for our help in finding out more about the God who in this manner finds expression in our lives.”​

And God is detectable to you because you want him to be in your life.

People of other religious beliefs also want their God to be true and they believe what they believe.
 
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