True and False Conversion (Everyone Please Read)

[the truth]

Just curious what others thought. I will be posting this in other sections God bless.

"That is the reason we have so many ‘mushroom’ converts, because their stony ground is not plowed up; they have not got a conviction of the Law; they are stony-ground hearers."
GEORGE WHITEFIELD

Kirk's comment I thought "backsliding" was a common, normal occurrence in Christianity until I understood the reality of false conversions and their prevalence in our churches today. This lesson is a real eye-opener.

Q U E S T I O N S & O B J E C T I O N S
"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!" When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). Ask him,
"Did you know the Lord?" If he answers yes, gently say, "So you admit that He is real and that you are in rebellion to His will." If he says, "I thought I did!" this gives you license to gently say, "If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If he didn’t know the Lord, he was therefore never a Christian (1 John 5:11–13,20). Explain to him that the Bible speaks
of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and per-secution, falls away. If he is open to reason, take him through the Ten Commandments, into the message of the cross, and the necessity of repentance and faith in the Savior.
Perhaps one of the most neglected concepts in the contemporary Body of Christ is that of true and false conversion.Why it is neglected is a mystery because the New Testament is filled with teachings about the
subject and gives many examples of false converts. The Scriptures speak of false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, and false brethren. A clear understanding of the subject will help ensure that we are not guilty of preaching a gospel that reaps false converts.
When Jesus gave His disciples the Parable of the Sower, it seems that they lacked understanding of its meaning: "He said to them, ‘Do you not know [understand] this parable? and how then will you know [understand] all parables?’" (Mark 4:13). In other words, the Parable of the Sower is the key to unlocking the mysteries of all the other parables. If any message comes from the parable, it is the fact that when the gospel is preached, there are true and false conversions. This parable speaks of the thorny ground, the stony ground, and the good-soil hearers—the false and the genuine converts.
Once that premise has been established, the light of perception begins to dawn on Jesus’ other parables about the kingdom of God. If one grasps the principle of the true and false being alongside each other, then the other parabolic teachings make sense: the Wheat and Tares (true and false), the Good Fish and Bad Fish (true and false), the Wise Virgins and the Foolish (true and false), and the Sheep and Goats (true and false). After telling about the Wheat and Tares, Jesus gave the Parable of the Dragnet:
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like to a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus said to them, Have you understood all these things?
They said to Him, Yes, Lord (Matthew 13:47–51).
Notice that the good fish and the bad fish were in the net together. The world is not caught in the dragnet of the kingdom of heaven; they remain in the world. The "fish" that are caught are those who respond to the gospel—the evangelistic "catch." They remain together until the Day of Judgment.
False converts lack genuine contrition for sin. They make a profession of faith but are deficient in biblical repentance—"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and to every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). A true convert, however, has a knowledge of sin and has godly sorrow, truly repents, and produces the "things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:9). This is evident by the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of righteousness, etc. Judas was a false convert. It would seem that he was an example of the thorny ground. The Bible says of the thorny-ground hearer: "The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" (Mark 4:19).
Some of these professing Christians stay within the church, and they are the ones who often discredit the name of Jesus Christ. Although false converts fail to repent of their sins, they do have a measure of spirituality. Judas did. He convinced some of the disciples that he did truly care for the poor. He seemed so trustworthy that he was the one who looked after the finances.When Jesus said, "One of you will betray me," the disciples didn’t point the finger at the faithful treasurer, but instead suspected themselves, saying, "Is it I, Lord?" So it’s not surprising that few within the Body of Christ would ever suspect that we are surrounded by those who fall into the "Judas" category.
However, alarm bells should go off when the church, which ought to have massive clout in society, sadly lacks it when push comes to shove.With our 142 million professed believers, we can’t even outlaw the killing of unborn children. As William Iverson wrote in Christianity Today, "A pound of meat would surely be affected by a quarter pound of salt. If this is real Christianity, the ‘salt of the earth,’ where is the effect of which Jesus spoke?"
God knows the genuine from the false, and He will separate them on the Day of Judgment.
F E A T H E R S F O R A R R O W S
The Bible tells us in Luke 22:47 that Judas led a "multitude" to Jesus. His motive, however, wasn’t to bring them to the Savior for salvation. Modern
evangelism is also bringing "multitudes" to Jesus. Their motive may be different from Judas’s, but the end result is the same. Just as the multitudes that Judas directed to Christ fell back from the Son of God, statistics
show that up to 90 percent of those coming to Christ under the methods of modern evangelism fall away from the faith. Their latter end becomes worse than the first. They openly crucify the Son of God afresh.
In their zeal without knowledge, those who prefer the ease of modern evangelism to biblical evangelism betray the cause of the gospel with a kiss.What may look like love for the sinner’s welfare is in truth eternally
detrimental to him.
Like Peter (Luke 22:51), our zeal without knowledge is actually cutting off the ears of sinners. Those we erroneously call "backsliders" won’t listen to our reasonings. As far as they are concerned, they have tried it once, and it didn’t work. What a victory for the prince of darkness, and what an unspeakable tragedy for the church!
Taken from The School Of Biblical Evangelism

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Tru. It is better that church be a community to which people belong before they believe. Belief is of course a matter up for debate - whether this requires concious acceptance, let alone "the prayer", etc.

But that would be a good rule of thumb for euangellion methinx

I am not outrightly rejecting "conversion", but here in RichChurch culture, conversion has become cultural and meaningless in so many ways.

 

[LadyMcDonald2]

I replied to this in the Baptist forum, but I guess it was removed? What about those who feel they did not truly convert after reading this message? How do you have a real conversion?
God bless you and yours,
Lady McDonald

 

[New_Wineskin]

I consider that much confusion occurs because so many "christians" would help to bring about the rebirth of someone and then proceed to tell them that they have to obey all sorts of laws so that they can maintain thieir salvation ( using different words ) . They tell them that they *must* read the Scriptures so often during the week and that they *must* "go to church" along with assorted other laws that appear to multiply . What happens is that the definition of Christian is changed . So , even though they were and still are christians , these meaningless rules create confusion because they trust these people who place the rules on them . Obedience to the Law cannot obtain righteousness and they become frustrated because the flesh cannot wage war against itself .

 

[indagroove]

I replied to this in the Baptist forum, but I guess it was removed? What about those who feel they did not truly convert after reading this message? How do you have a real conversion?
God bless you and yours,
Lady McDonald

I don't think you should worry about all that.

This is a matter of your heart, and God knows your heart.

If you believe that God gave his son Jesus, and Jesus died for you. Profess this faith, repent your sins, and accept the love of the trinity. That is your salvation.

Now go forward and work on your relationship with God to become more like Christ. Study God's word and commune with the Holy Spirit through bible study, prayer, and meditation.

God loves you, and that's all that matters.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

http://omega77.tripod.com/beachyanswerstobibleverses.htm
Today, true and false is harder to distinguish than ever before in history -
according to Jesus' Own Words in the Gospel(test,test,test-read it yourself).
At first it is strange or ironic or difficult that for over 300 years, the apostles and disciples and followers of Yeshua, Jews and Gentiles, did not know about many of the doctrines in the churches today - and many many Jews today, believers and orthodox,can't understand 'christian' doctrines that oppose old and new testament Scripture, or they can't understand why so many are seemingly duped willingly
without checking it out themselves, sometimes not even just reading what the Word of G_d actually says instead of what people say it says.
So it is a wonder and no small miracle that any Jew today turns to Yeshua to be
healed, though many may in the near future if or as G_d's Plan comes about as
some think it will.
Remember, if you ever knew, that G_d entrusted the Scriptures to the Jews, and
for the gentiles salvation came to the world through the Jews as this was well-pleasing to G_d the Almighty Creator of all. The twisting of scripture and
deceit and corruption of the world church is well described in Scripture - it does not
take a scholar to see and understand the clear description of the true and false in
Scripture: it takes trust like a little boy trusting his father, according to Jesus' Own Word in all four gospels (Father G_d Himself will teach all the truth to those who
trust Him and are willing to obey Him unconditionally without drawing back - that is
Jesus' Own Promise in G_d's Word)
So let all who call on His Name to be healed return to Him with all their heart and
soul and life and strength and depend on Him for all understanding. Shalom to all
with this goal, G_d's Plan for their lives.

Research, check out, pray about, read what the Bible actually says about
obedience, works, spirit and salvation(this will surprise you).
Remember that as Paul wrote the letters to the ekklesia, he warned that the false
teachers and prophets and pastors, wolves in sheeps clothing - looking real but
fake from the inside out, tricking the congregations by outward appearance - were
already among the groups of true believers >>>already! years before 312 a.d.<<<

in short, the falling away, the apostate church, was already in power when
constantine made religion a state or government entity(constantine never never
gave any evidence of being a christian, he compromised with religious leaders to get them all on his side, pagan and, well, just pagan; they all got official pardon and
power to put to death the followers of Jesus who had to go into hiding frequently to
save their lives and to keep the Scripture safe-the religious leaders in power were
all fake by then and adapted the scripture for their control and purpose, under the
control, of course, of the the antichrist who deceives many still today.)
During the Reformation, much truth came to light and set free a great number of
believers; let the truth continue to be revealed according to G_d's Plan.
Come quickly L-rd Jesus!! YES, come quickly!

 

[vincejohn]

Why are you afraid to say God ..G-d just curious please tell me thanks Vince.

 

[Qidron]

The Truth; Great post. Does my heart good.

New Wine Skins: When I heard the Lord's call, I trusted in those people that I joined fellowship with...and youre right, some were goofy....but it was the Lord that made the covenant with me, so He's the one that holds me and directs me. Truly, as we recognize false doctrine, we need to speak up...but the reason people fall away is because they NEVER KNEW HIM in the first place. They will have their chance to get past all their defences...God will see to it.

Lady Mc: if you feel you never truly converted...take that concern NOW to the Lord. YES He knows your heart...and will deal with your concern.

Enjoyed your post Jeff.

We can learn about the Son of God just about anywhere, but no matter where we learn of him...what we actually do about him is what matters...and that has a whole lot to do with the desires of our hearts to begin with. How is it that some want to know and please God and others simply want to get what they want? I dunno. God knows.

 

[New_Wineskin]

New Wine Skins: When I heard the Lord's call, I trusted in those people that I joined fellowship with...and youre right, some were goofy....but it was the Lord that made the covenant with me, so He's the one that holds me and directs me. Truly, as we recognize false doctrine, we need to speak up...but the reason people fall away is because they NEVER KNEW HIM in the first place. They will have their chance to get past all their defences...God will see to it .

While I agree that those who *actually* "fell away" , didn't actually know Him , I doubt that many actually fell away to begin with . Most only fell away from the club mentality of one *needing* to be a part or member of a group . They didn't fall away from the Lord .

 

[Qidron]

[/size]

While I agree that those who *actually* "fell away" , didn't actually know Him , I doubt that many actually fell away to begin with . Most only fell away from the club mentality of one *needing* to be a part or member of a group . They didn't fall away from the Lord .

OH! Absolutely and ...YES YES YES.

I DO know some poor souls that thought they must have "known" Christ because they made the right church noises, which only end up to be the pleasing of those around them. BUT if they were truly commiting their lives to Christ...we would still see that...that kind of heart change doesn't go away when you leave the "club" scene.

...and who knows HOW MANY there were like that? I don't worry about them...I PRAY for them...God is able to truly catch their attention.

Some people would say that I fell away FROM GOD because I am no longer a part of their Christian club...well I DID fall away... from putting my trust in them...PRAISE GOD. (everything that can be shaken will be shaken) And I fell right into His arms for a closer walk...one much more like what He's always intended...and He isn't finished yet.

Yepers, and God bless you!
Qidron

 

[christandisrael]

Just curious what others thought. I will be posting this in other sections God bless.

"That is the reason we have so many ‘mushroom’ converts, because their stony ground is not plowed up; they have not got a conviction of the Law; they are stony-ground hearers."
GEORGE WHITEFIELD

Kirk's comment I thought "backsliding" was a common, normal occurrence in Christianity until I understood the reality of false conversions and their prevalence in our churches today. This lesson is a real eye-opener.

Q U E S T I O N S & O B J E C T I O N S
"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!" When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). Ask him,
"Did you know the Lord?" If he answers yes, gently say, "So you admit that He is real and that you are in rebellion to His will." If he says, "I thought I did!" this gives you license to gently say, "If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If he didn’t know the Lord, he was therefore never a Christian (1 John 5:11–13,20). Explain to him that the Bible speaks
of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and per-secution, falls away. If he is open to reason, take him through the Ten Commandments, into the message of the cross, and the necessity of repentance and faith in the Savior.
Perhaps one of the most neglected concepts in the contemporary Body of Christ is that of true and false conversion.Why it is neglected is a mystery because the New Testament is filled with teachings about the
subject and gives many examples of false converts. The Scriptures speak of false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, and false brethren. A clear understanding of the subject will help ensure that we are not guilty of preaching a gospel that reaps false converts.
When Jesus gave His disciples the Parable of the Sower, it seems that they lacked understanding of its meaning: "He said to them, ‘Do you not know [understand] this parable? and how then will you know [understand] all parables?’" (Mark 4:13). In other words, the Parable of the Sower is the key to unlocking the mysteries of all the other parables. If any message comes from the parable, it is the fact that when the gospel is preached, there are true and false conversions. This parable speaks of the thorny ground, the stony ground, and the good-soil hearers—the false and the genuine converts.
Once that premise has been established, the light of perception begins to dawn on Jesus’ other parables about the kingdom of God. If one grasps the principle of the true and false being alongside each other, then the other parabolic teachings make sense: the Wheat and Tares (true and false), the Good Fish and Bad Fish (true and false), the Wise Virgins and the Foolish (true and false), and the Sheep and Goats (true and false). After telling about the Wheat and Tares, Jesus gave the Parable of the Dragnet:
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like to a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus said to them, Have you understood all these things?
They said to Him, Yes, Lord (Matthew 13:47–51).
Notice that the good fish and the bad fish were in the net together. The world is not caught in the dragnet of the kingdom of heaven; they remain in the world. The "fish" that are caught are those who respond to the gospel—the evangelistic "catch." They remain together until the Day of Judgment.
False converts lack genuine contrition for sin. They make a profession of faith but are deficient in biblical repentance—"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and to every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). A true convert, however, has a knowledge of sin and has godly sorrow, truly repents, and produces the "things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:9). This is evident by the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of righteousness, etc. Judas was a false convert. It would seem that he was an example of the thorny ground. The Bible says of the thorny-ground hearer: "The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" (Mark 4:19).
Some of these professing Christians stay within the church, and they are the ones who often discredit the name of Jesus Christ. Although false converts fail to repent of their sins, they do have a measure of spirituality. Judas did. He convinced some of the disciples that he did truly care for the poor. He seemed so trustworthy that he was the one who looked after the finances.When Jesus said, "One of you will betray me," the disciples didn’t point the finger at the faithful treasurer, but instead suspected themselves, saying, "Is it I, Lord?" So it’s not surprising that few within the Body of Christ would ever suspect that we are surrounded by those who fall into the "Judas" category.
However, alarm bells should go off when the church, which ought to have massive clout in society, sadly lacks it when push comes to shove.With our 142 million professed believers, we can’t even outlaw the killing of unborn children. As William Iverson wrote in Christianity Today, "A pound of meat would surely be affected by a quarter pound of salt. If this is real Christianity, the ‘salt of the earth,’ where is the effect of which Jesus spoke?"
God knows the genuine from the false, and He will separate them on the Day of Judgment.
F E A T H E R S F O R A R R O W S
The Bible tells us in Luke 22:47 that Judas led a "multitude" to Jesus. His motive, however, wasn’t to bring them to the Savior for salvation. Modern
evangelism is also bringing "multitudes" to Jesus. Their motive may be different from Judas’s, but the end result is the same. Just as the multitudes that Judas directed to Christ fell back from the Son of God, statistics
show that up to 90 percent of those coming to Christ under the methods of modern evangelism fall away from the faith. Their latter end becomes worse than the first. They openly crucify the Son of God afresh.
In their zeal without knowledge, those who prefer the ease of modern evangelism to biblical evangelism betray the cause of the gospel with a kiss.What may look like love for the sinner’s welfare is in truth eternally
detrimental to him.
Like Peter (Luke 22:51), our zeal without knowledge is actually cutting off the ears of sinners. Those we erroneously call "backsliders" won’t listen to our reasonings. As far as they are concerned, they have tried it once, and it didn’t work. What a victory for the prince of darkness, and what an unspeakable tragedy for the church!
Taken from The School Of Biblical Evangelism

Amazing!

 

[djbcrawford]

Why are you afraid to say God ..G-d just curious please tell me thanks Vince.

I notice he's from Israel, so probably has a jewish background. I think in their culture you aren't supposed to use the actual name of God, hence the abreviation - but I could be wrong. God commanded us not to make any images of him and writing his name is kind of like that.

 

[djbcrawford]

I thought that was a very interesting and accurate post. The only bit I would like clarified is the reference to modern evangelism vs biblical evangelism as I'm not sure what the difference is.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

"Shock and awe" verses "lifestyle and community".

 

[discernomatic]

From the OP.

The Bible tells us in Luke 22:47 that Judas led a "multitude" to Jesus. His motive, however, wasn’t to bring them to the Savior for salvation. Modern
evangelism is also bringing "multitudes" to Jesus. Their motive may be different from Judas’s, but the end result is the same. Just as the multitudes that Judas directed to Christ fell back from the Son of God, statistics
show that up to 90 percent of those coming to Christ under the methods of modern evangelism fall away from the faith. Their latter end becomes worse than the first. They openly crucify the Son of God afresh.
In their zeal without knowledge, those who prefer the ease of modern evangelism to biblical evangelism betray the cause of the gospel with a kiss.What may look like love for the sinner’s welfare is in truth eternally
detrimental to him.
Like Peter (Luke 22:51), our zeal without knowledge is actually cutting off the ears of sinners. Those we erroneously call "backsliders" won’t listen to our reasonings. As far as they are concerned, they have tried it once, and it didn’t work. What a victory for the prince of darkness, and what an unspeakable tragedy for the church!

End of quote.


I think I know what the author was getting at by comparing what he calls modern evangelism to biblical evangelism. I did take a look at the site where the information came from, I don't agree with all of the personalities listed there that recommend it, nor all of their doctrines; I am familiar with some of what they teach. The information itself is not directly on the site, it costs money to receive it.

Anyway. It is said that Judas ultimately had different motives to lead people to Jesus than the other disciples.
His motives probably came from the beliefs of that time that the messiah would be someone who could rally others around himself, to make an army to drive the Romans out of Israel. Some did connect Jesus' miracles to the prophecies about the messiah in the OT, but many also had the impression, also from prophecy, that the messiah would be a conqueror. The fact that Israel did not accept him as a whole split his ministry into two parts, which most could not have known. But it became clearer, especially later in Jesus' ministry, that he had no intention of becoming the leader some expected him to be. Even Peter, as late as the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was arrested, still misunderstood despite all that Jesus had taught the disciples about his coming death and resurrection.

But Peter knew that Jesus was much more than a leader despite his bouts with faith and temporary misunderstanding of some of what Jesus had tried to teach him. He had believed the gospel, which Judas, who also had been with Jesus for three years, did not.

I don't think that the "knowledge" mentioned in the text is referring to theological knowledge, but to spiritual knowledge, namely the knowledge of the gospel, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The author seems to claim that there are many unbelievers who are telling the gospel to others, perhaps a slightly altered gospel, for their own reasons. There are many who think that they believe even when they have not, but play the church game anyway. They could easily misunderstand the gospel and other things that Jesus taught, not having the Holy Spirit inside them, and then teach others their altered version of the gospel and teaching of Jesus Christ. Though the authors did not mention names, I imagine they were targeting newer movements that teach Positive Confession, Prosperity or Church Growth, that deliver a sugar-sweet feel-good gospel. Those that teach such a gospel don't follow it up by teaching self-discipline and repentance, but that Christian life is easy and prosperous.

This isn't a new problem, different sorts of cozy gospels have been spread ever since the apostles told others the gospel they had received from Jesus Christ.

I don't really have a problem with the possibility of 90% of church goers being unbelievers; scripture says that not all will believe. If they don't want to believe why make them? I think that it is a tragedy that some people come into contact with churches that heap up rule upon rule, just like the Pharisees did, so that people confuse belief in the gospel with an endless list of dos and don'ts.

I see two possibilities for people that get fed up in churches:

1. Either they never believed.

2. Or they really did believe, but just got fed up with a pharisaical system of rules that are impossible to follow and never experienced the freedom Christ called them to.

It seems like the authors want to stop non-believers from telling the gospel or frequenting churches, since it may be doing more bad than good. I agree that an overwhelming amount of people with false motives for gathering in churches, whether Christians or non-Christians might cause problems for the rest. Paul was against false teachers and did all he could to stop them. But he also said that despite the baggage they taught along with the gospel, that some would believe the scriptural gospel even then, so that the false teachers, though they used the gospel only as a means to trap or manipulate people, would still be foiled.

I wouldn't bother with throwing the non-believers as some suggest (if one could find out who these were) out of church congregations. It would be better to throw out the baggage, all of the extra rules and regulations that are not taught in scripture or that have been made so important that they choke the freedom Christians are supposed to have in Christ. This includes gospels heavy with asceticism that weigh people's feet down like a ball-and-chain and other gospels that nearly float away because they have no substance. Jesus taught neither the one nor the other type. Once that baggage is out of a church, then the church population will probably sort itself out. Manipulators will find fewer things that agree with them and those that only came along for the ride too. If they don't like it they can go somewhere else.

I think that a mixture of Christians and non-Christians will be found in practically every church, but the ratio will differ according to what kind of gospel is taught. I find it good that people usually have a choice of where they can attend church, and if they want to attend at all, since no one church body has a monopoly on the gospel.

 

[djbcrawford]

I was just wary about people who criticise "modern" evangelism for it's methods rather than it's message. Many people were against using alternative tools of communication such as drama, video, music, modern bible translations, etc. These are just tools to get across a message. It's the message of the gospel that's the important bit, but if people don't hear it or understand it what use is it to them.

 

[discernomatic]

I was just wary about people who criticise "modern" evangelism for it's methods rather than it's message. Many people were against using alternative tools of communication such as drama, video, music, modern bible translations, etc. These are just tools to get across a message. It's the message of the gospel that's the important bit, but if people don't hear it or understand it what use is it to them.

I would see a need to criticize drama, video or music if too much focus is put on it. Sometimes churches get so wrapped up in the music program that the musicians (and sometimes the listeners) suffer for it. I know (online) ex church musicians, teachers, deacons that were manipulated, oppressed and overworked, all in the name of God. When the programs get more important than the people then they are no good. Sometimes people can use such programs to set themselves apart. "See, I can act, I can sing, I can play an instrument." They would not be giving the glory to God, but wanting it for themselves. Since Jesus looks at our hearts, motive is important. Such a self-centered program, even if it tells the gospel, would be empty of spiritual worth. Just my two cents.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

"Shock and awe" euangellion might have worked in the heady 90's, or late 80's, but we are so accustomed to the "polished presentation" being the one that wants our money that we switch off (or on if we feel it worth our £50 or whatever). Sell, sell, sell. Well, shock and awe only works in Iraq - oh, no, sorry it doesn't does it?

Sucks as a tactic then. Live the Gospel. Live with and in the World. If you cant, then dont Gospelise it. Even Jesus was courteous enough to do this.

All euangellion sucks if it isnt about community and life-sharing (which is 2-way).

 

[djbcrawford]

I would see a need to criticize drama, video or music if too much focus is put on it. Sometimes churches get so wrapped up in the music program that the musicians (and sometimes the listeners) suffer for it. I know (online) ex church musicians, teachers, deacons that were manipulated, oppressed and overworked, all in the name of God. When the programs get more important than the people then they are no good. Sometimes people can use such programs to set themselves apart. "See, I can act, I can sing, I can play an instrument." They would not be giving the glory to God, but wanting it for themselves. Since Jesus looks at our hearts, motive is important. Such a self-centered program, even if it tells the gospel, would be empty of spiritual worth. Just my two cents.

I agree totally, but the same can be said of any style of worship/preaching - "see, I can thump the bible and go red while I preach..."

 

[djbcrawford]

"Shock and awe" euangellion might have worked in the heady 90's, or late 80's, but we are so accustomed to the "polished presentation" being the one that wants our money that we switch off (or on if we feel it worth our £50 or whatever). Sell, sell, sell. Well, shock and awe only works in Iraq - oh, no, sorry it doesn't does it?

Sucks as a tactic then. Live the Gospel. Live with and in the World. If you cant, then dont Gospelise it. Even Jesus was courteous enough to do this.

All euangellion sucks if it isnt about community and life-sharing (which is 2-way).

Worked for Peter when he stood up and told the Jews they had crucified the Son of God. We are told to go out into all the world and make disciples of all nations. That is a more active role than sitting quietly and hoping they copy us.

But you are right. It has to be a total package. Lifestyles of love and service which back up evangelical preaching, proclaiming the truth and freedom of God. Without people living the gospel (having and demonstrating Love), evangelism just comes across as hypocritical.

Incidentally, Germany used Shock and Awe in the second world war, except they it Blitzkreig. Of course Mr Bush had to re-phrase it when he used it.