Illenius said:
I think Dante actually has a rather elegant explanation of Hell (if you haven't read the inferno, I would recommend it, even if you don't follow his views - it is a classic), which puts different types of sinners in different circles of hell, with the top circle (and outside the land of torment) all the non-christians who lived good lives. The examples on the inferno are a selection of classical characters (like Homer), along with people of the period.
Illenius said:
The alternative I find somewhat chilling - that God will treat all non-believers the same way, regardless of their actions. This would put tribesmen who try to live good lives and never heard the word alongside brutal criminals who sinned all their lives with no repentance for their actions. Equally, what about those, who, whether by an early death, or by mental impairment, are unable to accept God?
Those two quotes are related.
Obviosly Dante is thinking about the not-too-bad guy and the murderer getting different punishments in hell (mind you he beleives there is hell).
Don't know if you are familiar with the bible that much but when Jesus gave an impression of heaven and God in a parable of the master and his workers(Math. 20); Some workers were hired in the morning, some in the afternoon others just before the work was done. He paid them generously but paid them all thesame amount. When the earlier workers complained, he made a point:
Don't take me for evil because I'm being generous. Somebody whose been a christian all their life and another whose been so for the last few of his/her life both inherit heaven, not a fraction of it. Can't we argue that He is reconginzing those "Victims of Circumstance" that never get to know him earlier?
Its left to us to get the word out to everyone, knowing that all they need to do is accept Jesus.
Another point here is that we can't "Earn" heaven or be perefect enough for it. How much good do you need to do the make it to heaven? What is the line that you can't cross? If you follow the point here, you will agree that we are just not perfect so we accept his forgiveness when we come up short and his atonement is our Justification. Or we can just keep trying to save up enough "good", which brings me to my next point and your next quote.
Illenius said:
And what about people from other religions - Hindus have a completely different belief structure, but still respect their god(s). Does that consign them to hell, or do they reincarnate, as they believe?
You seem like an excellent Ethics student so you might have heard about the origin of most of the world religions. Lets take Buddhism for instance. They are "good" people as are most other religions. It offers no personal salvation and offers no answers to the ultimate meaning of existence.
From my last few comments, you see that being good is not enough. Its a step in the right direction but it doesn't earn you salvation.
Illenius said:
Oh, and I don't like being told that my friends of other religions are going to hell. For example, my hindu friends respect my religious choices and do not force theirs on me. Instead, they have invited me to learn about their religion, and took me to a night of Navrati, which was both interesting and fun.
I have a muslim room mate and we respect each other, heck, we've been room mates for a year. I haven't tried to shove Jesus down his throat and vice versa (anybody who does does not represent what Jesus endorses).
Illenius said:
"You are the guest of a tribe who have captured 15 tourists trespassing on their land. All of them are to be sacrificed, but, as you are the guest, the leader of the tribe says he will release the rest of the tourists if you pick one and sacrifice them yourself. Do you do it?"
Two points here. This has nothing to the validity of Jesus and Christianity as you can throw that question at anybody of any religion.
Secondly, what would I do? I'll employ a higher power that is greater than me and whatever the world can dish out (Jesus anybody) and he won't dissappoint. Why, because its beyond me (and anybody for that matter). The bible says to let God's strength show in our weaknesses.
Illenius said:
A good example of this, as we were discussing above, is homosexuality. I have been trained to analyse ethical problems in terms of beneficence, non-maleficence, autonomy and justice (a system designed for biomedical ethics, but can be adapted to most situations). As good (beneficence), no harm (non-maleficence) a respect for autonomy and the demonstration of equal rights (justice) is seen in a same sex union, to me it seems good.
Seems good, but we now know good is not always good enough. Secondly, you can call it a geniune mistake but its still a wrong. No need to pick on homosexuality and any other "sins" if you will.
Somebody once called in to my pastor's radio show and asked the pastor almost antagonizingly whether he beleived people were born homosexual or not. My pastor said "Yes" to the caller's amazement (he was gay but didn't say so yet) and my pastor continued by saying the following (not in his exact words) "...yes we are all born gay. We are born gay, thieves, liars, cheaters and everythingelse. We also have the CHOICE of dropping those things we are born with, so if you are gay(not referring to the caller) or an addict or whatever, you still have a choice to make whether to stay so or change for the better"
Read from verse 22, he was responding to Pharisees who when they heard he cast out demons come to him for the sole purpose of antagoinzing him (v. 25 "Since Jesus knew what they were thinking, he said to them...")
