Trinity

[Godisgood]

How does a MJ understand that Jesus is God made manifest? How would a MJ explain this to someone of another religion(non-christian)? Is there any significance that a Jewish person would understand that I, as a gentile Christian, would not understand about the term "Son of God" or "Messiah". Does the term "Son of God" mean more than Jesus is God's son?
As I understand from the NT that they sought to kill Jesus because he was claiming to be God. Did they think he was claiming to be God because of the miracles he did, claiming the work of his father, or is there way more to it that I don't understand. I'm trying to understand this from a Jewish perspective.

 

[Ani Uriyah]

Is there any significance that a Jewish person would understand that I, as a gentile Christian, would not understand about the term "Son of God" or "Messiah".

Son of David means you are "of David."

Son of Noach means you are "of Noach."

Son of God means you are "of God."

Messiah means "Anointed", and God cannot be anointed, He anoints.

As I understand from the NT that they sought to kill Jesus because he was claiming to be God.

Incorrect, they were making things up. The also said he had a demon, and that he was a sinner, that he cast out demons by the power of the prince of demons, that he was a blasphemier, etc. If you are going to take the accusers side, you might as well take the things I just meanted above also.

Did they think he was claiming to be God because of the miracles he did, claiming the work of his father, or is there way more to it that I don't understand.

None of the miracls, wonders, and deeds were his own, by it was of his God: Acts 2:22.

 

[Maximus]

Son of David means you are "of David."

Son of Noach means you are "of Noach."

Son of God means you are "of God."

Messiah means "Anointed", and God cannot be anointed, He anoints.



Incorrect, they were making things up. The also said he had a demon, and that he was a sinner, that he cast out demons by the power of the prince of demons, that he was a blasphemier, etc. If you are going to take the accusers side, you might as well take the things I just meanted above also.



None of the miracls, wonders, and deeds were his own, by it was of his God: Acts 2:22.

So, if I understand you right, Ani, you are denying that the Lord Jesus Christ is God?

Is that the standard MJ position?

Maybe I misunderstood you, so please clarify.

 

[iitb]

Well, Ani seems to have been banned, but I'll see if I can help you out.

So, if I understand you right, Ani, you are denying that the Lord Jesus Christ is God?

Based on a couple of his other posts, I would say that he is.

Is that the standard MJ position?

I don't know that there really is a "standard" MJ position on this subject right now. I think the majority of congregations follow the Christian view of the trinity, but there also seem to be a few that don't see the Trinity as being compatable(sp?) with Judaism, and as a result don't follow it.

 

[Maximus]

Thanks for the assist, Justin.

So there are MJ groups that deny the doctrine of the Trinity?

Why the concern for what is compatible with Judaism?

Don't Christians regard modern Judaism as an apostasy from the faith of the true Remnant of Israel, who followed the Lord Jesus?

 

[simchat_torah]

oy vey...

 

[iitb]

So there are MJ groups that deny the doctrine of the Trinity?

Yes, there are. An argument can be made that the Trinity violates Deuteronomy 6:4. It's not a debate I care to jump into, but a case can be made.

For the most part, though, it seems that the majority of Messianic congregations go along with the Christian view of the Trinity. However, I'm relatively new to this, so if anyone wants to correct me...

Why the concern for what is compatible with Judaism?

Well, it is called Messianic Judaism...

Actually, the belief here seems to be that you don't have to follow Christian doctrine to accept Y'shua(Jesus) as Messiah. He was a first century, Torah observant Jew, who also taught Torah observance. It only makes sense to walk as he walked and do as he did.

Don't Christians regard modern Judaism as an apostasy from the faith of the true Remnant of Israel, who followed the Lord Jesus?

Man, I'm not even sure where to start with this one!

Actually, to answer your question, yes, they do. However, a lot of Messianics don't accept the label "Christian."

What you have presented here is referred to as Replacement Theology, i.e., the church claiming to be the "New Israel." I think I can safely say that most Messianics disagree with this. The Israel of the New Testament is the same as the Israel of the Old Testament, the gentiles are simply grafted in. God's chosen people have always been the Hebrews, and that won't change.

Again, I have to say that I'm relatively new to all of this, so if anyone else wants to clarify/correct anything I've said, feel free!

Justin

 

[Godisgood]

What you have presented here is referred to as Replacement Theology, i.e., the church claiming to be the "New Israel." I think I can safely say that most Messianics disagree with this. The Israel of the New Testament is the same as the Israel of the Old Testament, the gentiles are simply grafted in. God's chosen people have always been the Hebrews, and that won't change.

This is the way I understand it as well, as a Gentile believer; grafted in. I am not familiar with the term Replacement Theology. that seems so nit picky. God has not changed, nor has His plan to redeem his creation. anyway, that's a new one on me.

Let me ask it this way: If I asked a Jewish person to explain the Messiah, what would he tell me?

 

[KelsayDL]

There is no standard position on the nature of God. Not in mainstream christianity, and not in MJ so far as I have seen.

Some believe the concept of the trinity accurately describes the nature of God, others believe it is lacking.

And still others on both side of the fence would make it a salvational issue (at least amongst christianity) which is an error they should refrain from.

 

[iitb]

Let me ask it this way: If I asked a Jewish person to explain the Messiah, what would he tell me?

Well, if I'm not mistaken, simchat_torah is the only person in this thread qualified to answer this. Maybe he'll check in later.

 

[Maximus]

From Maximus: Don't Christians regard modern Judaism as an apostasy from the faith of the true Remnant of Israel, who followed the Lord Jesus?

Response From Pray4Isrel: You SO TOTALLY did NOT just go THERE!

So you regard modern Judaism as something other than apostasy?

I am not trying to debate here; I'm just trying to get a handle on what you folks believe.

BTW, "Replacement Theology" is an inaccurate term, since those who believe the Church is Israel do not see her as a "replacement" but as the continuation of Israel, augmented by the grafting in of Gentile believers. After all, the Church as founded by our Lord was composed entirely of believing Jews.

No argument offered, just a clarification of terms.

From JustinHulsey: However, a lot of Messianics don't accept the label "Christian."

Why not?

Pardon me, but that strikes me as surpassing odd.

After all, isn't Christian just the Anglicized Greek equivalent of Messianic, which is the Anglicized Hebrew for the same thing: one who follows the Anointed One?

Anglicized Hebrew to Anglicized Greek:

Messiah=Christ

Messianic=Christian

 

[Maximus]

Please explain first what you mean by "Modern Judaism"... I wasn't aware that "Modern" Judaism differs from Judaism.
Apostasy is an odd choice for describing Judaism, don't you think? Will you also please explain how Judaism spreads apostasy?

Okay.

Here's an explanation.

Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah, the only-begotten Son of God, God in the flesh, the Savior of the world. He is the fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism.

To be in line with the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Old Testament, and thus with true Judaism, one had to follow Yeshua, the Messiah. To reject Him was to reject Israel's God and the faith of the Hebrew Fathers.

To have been a part of the Covenant Community and then to reject God and thus the faith of the Hebrew Fathers is to be an apostate, regardless of one's ancestry or what one calls oneself.

I referred to today's Judaism as modern Judaism to differentiate it from the Judaism of those who followed Yeshua.

BTW, did Judaism always have Reformed, Conservative, Hasidic, and Orthodox factions within it? Might those distinctions be something characteristic of modern Judaism that was absent from the Judaism of ancient times?

I don't think I said that Judaism "spreads apostasy", but I suppose it does, since it does not affirm the Lordship of Jesus Christ and in fact teaches denial of His Lordship.

Oh, I wanted to add a comment. I guess modern Jews cannot be considered apostates, strictly speaking, since they never were a part of the Covenant Community of Israel. Only those Jews of the generation alive when Jesus walked the earth and who rejected Him could be considered apostates. Modern Jews are simply unbelievers like the rest of the non-Christian world.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Modern Jews are simply unbelievers like the rest of the non-Christian world.

Of course you mean only those who are Jewish but are Atheists right?

 

[Maximus]

Of course you mean only those who are Jewish but are Atheists right?

Nope.

You cannot have the Father without the Son (John 14:6).

To deny that Jesus is the Christ is not only to be an unbeliever but an antichrist (1 John 2:22-23).

"Whoever trangresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son" (2 John 9).

Jews deny that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the only-begotten Son of God, God in the flesh.

That makes them unbelievers like all others who do the same.

God loves all people, but they must repent and turn to our Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

It matters not
Whether one is a scion of Abraham
Or of Kublai Khan,
There is no salvation without the Son.