Trinity or Oneness?

[Child_Of_The_Risen_King]

Im currently a member of a oneness church and have been having doubts. can anyone help me

 

[thesword]

Im currently a member of a oneness church and have been having doubts. can anyone help me

Doubts about what exactly?

 

[SolomonVII]

The concept of Trinity does not mean that there are three different Gods. Father, Son and Spirit are One. The idea of Trinity helps to focus our minds on the idea that God is a God of love. It is only through relationships that love can be understood.
That is what I understand by Trinity. Christianity remains a monothiestic religion. God in three persons is nevertheless the One , true God.

 

[AlabamaMan]

It would help to know what questions about the trinity you have or what doubts about oneness you have.

 

[Colabomb]

I used to be a Oneness myself, I am definitely willing to help you. I may be able to understand where you are coming from.

Are you UPC?

 

[Rafael]

It's great to have people here that have already experienced coming out of the Oneness doctrine, but I thought to just add that restricting God to one person and putting limitations on God has always been something man finds natural to do. Even in Genesis, God refers to Himself in plural:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

 

[Oblio]

And the Holy Trinity visits Abraham and Sarah in the form of 3 Angels (Gen 18)

 

[Colabomb]

And the Holy Trinity visits Abraham and Sarah in the form of 3 Angels (Gen 18)

I was going to mention that but didn't know the Reference, thank you much Oblio!

God Bless you all Richly in Christ's Peace!

 

[Athanasian Creed]

And the Holy Trinity visits Abraham and Sarah in the form of 3 Angels (Gen 18)

Actually, it is the Lord God (Jesus pre-incarnate) and 2 angels who visit Abraham - notice, he says in verse 3 "If I have found favour in your eyes, my Lord.." One "Man" is addressed as Lord, the pre-incarnate Christ. Also notice verse 22 where it says "The MEN turned away and went towards Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD" Notice chapter 19:1 "The TWO angels arrived at Sodom..." AND also verse 24, "The the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom & Gomorrah FROM THE LORD OUT OF THE HEAVENS" !!
Notice the mention of TWO distinct LORDS being mentioned here - the LORD on earth who had visited Abraham (Jesus) and the LORD in the heavens (the Father)

John said, "No one has ever see God, but God the One and Only (Begotten Son) who is at the Father's side, has made Him known" Jesus made the Father known, who is the One no one can see and live.

**Isaiah 48:16 -

"And now the (1) LORD God AND (2) His Spirit hath sent (3) Me" (Jesus the Messiah"

The Father (1) the Holy Spirit (2) and the divine Messiah Jesus (3)

Isaiah 63:8 -10 -

"He said, Surely they are My people,sons who will not be false to Me" and so He became their Saviour. In all their distress He too was distressed, and the Angel of His presence (literal, Face) saved them. In His love and mercy He redeemed them;.....Yet they rebelled against His Holy Spirit..."

God the Father is speaking ".....they are My people" Then "And He became their Saviour", that is, a second Personality (Jesus who's Name means God the Saviour) Then comes "And they vexed His Holy Spirit" which brings us to the third Personality. The literal rendering "Angel of His Face" in Hebrew sheds light upon the words of Jesus in John 14:9, "He that has seen Me has seen the Father" **

The Bible is clear from Genesis from God saying "let US" "OUR" to Revelation that God is a Triune Being


Ray


Note: Text between the "**" is taken from the booklet "Do Christians Worship 3 Gods ?" by Leopold Cohn, D.D. published by Sar Shalom Publications (A.B.M.J), Englewood Cliffs, NJ

 

[4thwatcher]

The Bible is clear from Genesis from God saying "let US" "OUR" to Revelation that God is a Triune Being

hello, athanasian creed i'm neither a trinitarian nor a oneness proponent. nonetheless, i just wish to share my views being a Christian my self about what the scripture really teaches about the Diety of the Godhead.

to start with, got the following questions for you:

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.

im no boxer cheers!

 

[Oblio]

Actually, it is the Lord God (Jesus pre-incarnate) and 2 angels who visit Abraham

That is an interesting interpretation that you have, but it is not the one the the Christian Church has held to for centuries. The alternation of Lord and men is to show the truth of the Trinity, one Godhead, three hypostases. Christ is there to be sure, but so are the other two members of the Holy Trinity.

[c]
The Holy Trinity[/c]

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

good link Oblio!

 

[Athanasian Creed]

That is an interesting interpretation that you have, but it is not the one the the Christian Church has held to for centuries. The alternation of Lord and men is to show the truth of the Trinity, one Godhead, three hypostases. Christ is there to be sure, but so are the other two members of the Holy Trinity.

[c]
The Holy Trinity[/c]

Actually Oblio, i've seen both interpretations used but from the reading of the passage as i've outlined it is pretty clear that only One of the visitors is the Lord God. From verse 3, we read in the Hebrew that only One is addressed as Lord and it is He who stays behind to speak to Abraham, unto Whom Abraham beseeches as the Righteous Judge. The other two who accompanied the Lord God are His angels who He sends ahead of Him to Sodom (see Gen 19:1) and the Lord God appears later in verse 24 as the Lord who rains burning sulphur from the LORD out of the heavens.

From John's words in his Gospel that no one has seen God (meaning the Father & the Spirit) the One who appears to Abraham (and others in the OT) is no other than the glorious Lord Jesus pre-incarnate

Even if my interpretation is correct, it still does not take away the fact of God being a Triune Being and that the Scriptures, both Old & New Testament, clearly point this out.

Merry CHRISTmas all,


Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

hello, athanasian creed i'm neither a trinitarian nor a oneness proponent. nonetheless, i just wish to share my views being a Christian my self about what the scripture really teaches about the Diety of the Godhead.

to start with, got the following questions for you:

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?
(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.

im no boxer cheers!

You say you are a Christian who is neither a Trinitarian or Oneness - you are running out of options Who and what is God then ?? What, according to you, does the Scriptures "really teach about the Deity of the Godhead" ??

That being said, on to your questions:
(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity? NOT NECESSARY

b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity? AGAIN, NOT NECESSARY

b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity? STILL AGAIN, NOT NECESSARY

Ok, back to Genesis chapter 1: 1,2 we see God AND the Spirit of God. In verse 26, God says "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness...." Who then is God speaking to ??? Some would say God is speaking to the angels but that is unscriptural since angels do not share the image or likeness of God, only man does that - man being God's special creation. Reading verse 27 it says that GOD created man in HIS OWN image. Logically then, God was speaking to God - since the US and OUR is the Godhead. The US and OUR created man in God's image & likeness.

The Bible is understood in and of itself - each verse, chapter, book a piece in the great puzzle. In reading from the original languages, Hebrew & Greek, we gain greater understanding to the meaning of the verses. Only as one studies diligently will one begin to understand, albeit only a glimpse, the nature/Being of God.

Ok onward, there are three who are revealed to be God in the Bible (and only three) That is the Father is God, the Son (Word) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. NOT three Gods but one God because the Bible is consistent in it's affirmation that there is only one God, both in the Old and New Testaments. Yet the Sh'ma in Dueteronomy 6:4 is incorrectly interpreted both by some in Judaism (Messianic excepted) and Oneness proponents of God being one numerically yet the word used for one is "echad" which means a UNITED one, NOT "yachid" meaning ABSOLUTE. The same word is used in Genesis 2:24 to illustrate the bond of marriage - the two becoming one flesh. Obviously there is still two persons yet they are a UNITIED one in the bond of marriage. The Jews understanding of God as a Trinity was not a foreign concept - Moses was very much a Trinitarian in his understanding of who God was * It was only after the 12th century when the 2nd Moses, Moses Maimonides arrived. He compiled 13 articles of faith which the Jews accepted and incorporated into their liturgy. One being: "I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an ABSOLUTE one. This has been repeated daily by the Jews in their prayers since then. *


** So then, the Bible teaches:

1) There is only one God Who is eternal, immutible.

2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son (Word) and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.

3) The Father, the Son (Word) and the Sprit are indentified as being fully Deity - that is the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ & the Holy Spirit as well as that of the Father. **

Scriptural references to the Deity of the Persons in the Godhead:

Father - 1 Corinthians 1:3 "May God our Father...."
Son (Word) - John 1:1 "The Word was with God and was God"
- John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I AM" (see Exodus 3:14)
Holy Spirit - Acts 5:3,4 Lying to the Holy Spirt is equated with lying to God.

There are other Scriptures for each but for the sake of time/space only one is used.

To understand the Trinity, the mathematical equation is this:

1 x 1 x 1 = 1 - One God yet three Divine Persons who share in the Godhead, in the essence of the Being of God.


Therefore it is not necessary that the Persons of the Godhead identify Themselves as either the First, Second or Third Members of the Elohim. It is Scripturally understood by both the Old Testament Jews and those who accepted Jesus as the Divine Messiah the Old Testament said would come (Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2) His name was Immanuel meaning "God with us" This was not, as i said earlier, a foreign concept to the Jews of the OT or of Jesus day. They were VERY well versed in the Scriptures and devotedly held that the God of Israel was the only true and living God. They recognized Jesus to be God come in the flesh as was prophecied by the Jewish prophets.


Merry CHRISTmas to all,


Ray

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

trinity verses John 15:2-6, matt 3:16-17, rev 1:4-5,Gen 1:1,26;3:22;11:7, John 14:15-16,26, 2 cor 13:14

one God verses Isiaih 44:6, 1 cor 8:4, deut 6:4, Malachi 3:6, 2 cor 13:14

more verse out there ...I am sure



side note

John 1:18a No man hath seen God {the Father] at any time