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Are all who pray to saints for their intercession praying to Elijah or Moses? Is that your contention? I hope not because a jillion prayers are addressed to people who have died and have not even been canonized by the church, not to mention local favorites and fictitious people like St. Christopher!Did Elijah and Moses not hear our Lord God talking on the mountain?
I have to correct you. It is not my wisdom at all, but the teachings of the Church you rail against (if I have expressed it correctly and it has been understood by you). Am not that smart and often error in these brief replies attempting to summarize things that volumes have been written on. But I know were to find and correct my answers and also Whom has promised to preserve the teachings my poor attempt to express here relies on.The fact remains that there is ONE and ONLY ONE account in the Bible of someone talking to the departed. That was Saul and he lost his life for it. You use a verse that talks about offering up prayers of the saints to set up a doctrine??? Revelation is a book of prophecy and it could mean ANYTHING. You use YOUR wisdom to make it mean something that it CAN NOT mean because it is CONTRARY to ALL the rest of scripture, instead of WAITING for God to reveal the meaning. That is what you get for using man's wisdom! The catholic church added the praying to the deceased along with multiple other pagan practices to unify the pagans and the Christians. If God wanted us to pray to the departed then we would SEE IT IN HIS WORD.
God has told us JUST how to worship Him. If you worship Him in ANY OTHER WAY then it is FALSE WORSHIP. Cain TRIED to worship God the way HE wanted to, but God HATED IT. In His grace He told Cain the right way to go, but he refused. God has told us how to worship Him but you catholics add to what He told us, making your worship FALSE AND WORTHLESS. We can ONLY do what He tells us and he NEVER told us to pray to the departed. He also NEVER told us to kill people for not accepting our dogmas, He also never told us that we could PAY MONEY TO GET OUT OF OUR SINS. He also never told us that Mary was immaculately conceived, He also never told us to baptize infants, and the list goes ON AND ON. But you catholics don't CARE what HE wants, you do things the way YOU WANT. Just like the women of today whose desires, according to God, is supposed to be to their husband, YOU (Catholic church) ARE CLAIMING God is your husband, yet you refuse to do what HE WANTS. You make YOURSELF THE HEAD. I see many people like this in the Bible, the first being Cain.
Yeah my dad is not even Catholic but I find myself talking to him sometimes. I do not see the evil in that. And I never claimed Catholics are not sinners or without fault.Are all who pray to saints for their intercession praying to Elijah or Moses? Is that your contention? I hope not because a jillion prayers are addressed to people who have died and have not even been canonized by the church, not to mention local favorites and fictitious people like St. Christopher!
The subject is PRAYING to them, not remembering them....or whether or not Catholics are sinners.Yeah my dad is not even Catholic but I find myself talking to him sometimes. I do not see the evil in that. And I never claimed Catholics are not sinners or without fault.
I never said I did not ask my father for help (that is a request - a prayer BTW - to a dead person). And I still do not see the harm in that.The subject is PRAYING to them, not remembering them....or whether or not Catholics are sinners.
BTW, if we actually read the story rather than what someone else tells us it means, Samuel actually tells Saul why the Lord is ignoring him and also why he will die that very day - and it had nothing to do with summoning Samuel or talking to him.The fact remains that there is ONE and ONLY ONE account in the Bible of someone talking to the departed. That was Saul and he lost his life for it. You use a verse that talks about offering up prayers of the saints to set up a doctrine??? Revelation is a book of prophecy and it could mean ANYTHING. You use YOUR wisdom to make it mean something that it CAN NOT mean because it is CONTRARY to ALL the rest of scripture, instead of WAITING for God to reveal the meaning. That is what you get for using man's wisdom! The catholic church added the praying to the deceased along with multiple other pagan practices to unify the pagans and the Christians. If God wanted us to pray to the departed then we would SEE IT IN HIS WORD.
God has told us JUST how to worship Him. If you worship Him in ANY OTHER WAY then it is FALSE WORSHIP. Cain TRIED to worship God the way HE wanted to, but God HATED IT. In His grace He told Cain the right way to go, but he refused. God has told us how to worship Him but you catholics add to what He told us, making your worship FALSE AND WORTHLESS. We can ONLY do what He tells us and he NEVER told us to pray to the departed. He also NEVER told us to kill people for not accepting our dogmas, He also never told us that we could PAY MONEY TO GET OUT OF OUR SINS. He also never told us that Mary was immaculately conceived, He also never told us to baptize infants, and the list goes ON AND ON. But you catholics don't CARE what HE wants, you do things the way YOU WANT. Just like the women of today whose desires, according to God, is supposed to be to their husband, YOU (Catholic church) ARE CLAIMING God is your husband, yet you refuse to do what HE WANTS. You make YOURSELF THE HEAD. I see many people like this in the Bible, the first being Cain.
Well then, considering all the explanations that have been offered so far, it's not likely that any more discussion is going to make a dent so long as your position is "I don't see the harm in that." The "harm" is that it is patently wrong to give to others what belongs to God alone...and there is plenty in Scripture which says just that. But if you don't see the wrong in that, then you don't.I never said I did not ask my father for help (that is a request - a prayer BTW - to a dead person). And I still do not see the harm in that.
This assumes the practice is doing that, so you are correct as long as you believe that assumption to be true. As long as you incorrectly assume Catholics are giving something to someone that rightfully belongs to God, then your imaginary position remains valid to you. It does not make the position a true representation of the practice.Well then, considering all the explanations that have been offered so far, it's not likely that any more discussion is going to make a dent so long as your position is "I don't see the harm in that." The "harm" is that it is patently wrong to give to others what belongs to God alone...and there is plenty in Scripture which says just that. But if you don't see the wrong in that, then you don't.
This assumes the practice is doing that, so you are correct as long as you believe that assumption to be true. As long as you incorrectly assume Catholics are giving something to someone that rightfully belongs to God, then your imaginary position remains valid to you. It does not make the position a true representation of the practice.
And you have yet to explain (absent the practice of course) how it is Saint John has elders giving to God something you claim they should never have had in the first place. Did they steal those prayers?
The Father.A trinitarian brother on another thread refused to answer this question.
Can anybody give me an answer?
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD*God made the earth and the heavens,
* יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
The Father.
John 10:30 " I and the Father are One."Please explain this to me:
According to what you said, all the Old Testament scriptures below refer to the Father. But the New Testament tells us clearly that Jesus fulfills all of these scriptures.
Isaiah 43:10-11 No other saviour
John 4:42 Christ, the saviour
Isaiah 44:6 First and last
Revelation 1:8 Alpha and omega
Zechariah 14:5 LORD shall come back w saints
1 Thessalonians 3:13 Jesus returns with saints
Hebrews 12:23 God is the judge
John 5:22 Jesus is the judge
Isaiah 33:22 Jehovah is Judge
Revelation 19:11 Jesus is Judge
Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah is Creator
Colossians 1:16 Jesus is Creator
Exodus 3:14, John 8:58 I Am
Why are we told that there is no other savior but the Father, and later told that the Son is our savior? Etc.
Then how can you say that Jehovah is the Father, and not the Son also?John 10:30 " I and the Father are One."
The subject is PRAYING to them, not remembering them....or whether or not Catholics are sinners.
I don't think so. The Vatican (which has all the information you refer to and a lot more riding on the decision) doesn't think so. But the point, I think, is still relevant, St. Christopher aside, and some other example could just as easily have been cited.1. St. Christopher was a real person
There's a verbal slight of hand being used when something like that is said, regardless of denomination. EO Christians clearly DO pray to saints, even if they define their intentions as you describe here.2. The Orthodox do not strictly speaking pray to the saints but rather through them
Please explain this to me:
According to what you said, all the Old Testament scriptures below refer to the Father. But the New Testament tells us clearly that Jesus fulfills all of these scriptures.
Isaiah 43:10-11 No other saviour
John 4:42 Christ, the saviour
Isaiah 44:6 First and last
Revelation 1:8 Alpha and omega
Zechariah 14:5 LORD shall come back w saints
1 Thessalonians 3:13 Jesus returns with saints
Hebrews 12:23 God is the judge
John 5:22 Jesus is the judge
Isaiah 33:22 Jehovah is Judge
Revelation 19:11 Jesus is Judge
Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah is Creator
Colossians 1:16 Jesus is Creator
Exodus 3:14, John 8:58 I Am
Why are we told that there is no other savior but the Father, and later told that the Son is our savior? Etc.
Genesis 1:2-3
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Philippians 2:6-7
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
I don't think so. The Vatican (which has all the information you refer to and a lot more riding on the decision) doesn't think so. But the point, I think, is still relevant, St. Christopher aside, and some other example could just as easily have been cited.
There's a verbal slight of hand being used when something like that is said, regardless of denomination. EO Christians clearly DO pray to saints, even if they define their intentions as you describe here.
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