Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

RevelationTestament · Aug 23, 2014

Der Alter said:
I have already answered this in a previous post in this thread, reposted here for your benefit.

I realize you quoted some encyclopedia. My question was specific.
Do you believe according to what you know, that those are accurate representations of YHWH?
I am the way
I am the Word
I am life?

ron4shua · Aug 23, 2014

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Most of all , our Master is full of that ONE SPIRIT .

Der Alte · Aug 23, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
I realize you quoted some encyclopedia. My question was specific.
Do you believe according to what you know, that those are accurate representations of YHWH?
I am the way
I am the Word
I am life?

Do you? If so why!? If not why not?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 23, 2014

Originally Posted by The Boxer

And many places in the new testament declare that Christ is Yahwah. It was Jesus who led the people out of Egypt.

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality anddeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1: 4-5 ESV

Click to expand...

I could only find 2 Bible versions that have Jesus in this verse.

Are there any others, and also, what Greek Ms would these 2 versions have used?

Douay Rheims
1:5
I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not:

ESV
Jude 1:5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

.

Jack Terrence · Aug 24, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
[/indent][/indent]I could only find 2 Bible versions that have Jesus in this verse.

Are there any others, and also, what Greek Ms would these 2 versions have used?

See NetBible note.

24tc The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Ihsous, Jesus) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, Lord) or θεός (qeos, God) for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [qeos Cristos, God Christ] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}. As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.

https://bible.org/netbible/

RevelationTestament · Aug 24, 2014

Der Alter said:
Do you? If so why!? If not why not?

yes. I do. I was just asking you out of curiosity - you seem defensive.

Jesus said my words are life. So to follow the Word is the WAY to gain Eternal LIFE. So in this sense they are equated even though the grammatical meaning may not reveal all that.

Anyway, I guess you can open another commentary to see what men say, but I just thought I'd see what you actually believe.
Cheers

RevelationTestament · Aug 24, 2014

The Boxer said:
See NetBible note.

24tc The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Ihsous, Jesus) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, Lord) or θεός (qeos, God) for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [qeos Cristos, God Christ] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}. As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.

https://bible.org/netbible/

This is not surprising to LDS - which is why the qualifier is in our Articles of Faith, that we believe in the Bible so far as it is translated correctly. It is apparent that in the translations, things were changed or else all the manuscripts would agree. But they don't. Yet, critics including yourself poke at this, and criticize us for it. Yet, here you are giving a perfect example of why we believe the KJV is not necessarily perfect in its translation.

And yes, it is apparent that Jesus was involved in the early days of Israel. After all, He is the Mighty One of Jacob/Israel. I believe He is the El Shaddai who appeared to Abraham and Jacob - which is why He told the Jews, before Abraham, I am. He is the being who delivered the law to Moses. Jesus also said He had sent the prophets to Jerusalem. He also said men had not seen the Father, but that the Son had declared Him. With the exception of Moses who had seen at least a part of the Father, men dealt with the servants of the Father - Jesus as YHWH Elohim, or the angel of the Lord.

he-man · Aug 24, 2014

The Boxer said:
See NetBible note.

24tc ‡ The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Ihsous, “Jesus&#8221 is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, “Lord&#8221 or θεός (qeos, “God&#8221 for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}. As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.https://bible.org/netbible/

The Codex list Jesus Christ as this: ΙΥ ΧΥ Mark 1:1 Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus B, in all CAPS, [Uncials].
It was not until they were translated into the cursive [Minuscules] that ις χς were used,

after that it was translated written in cursive Greek as in Mar 1:1᾿Αρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 24, 2014

Is the underlined talking about Jesus or God?

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life.

.

Jack Terrence · Aug 24, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
Yet, here you are giving a perfect example of why we believe the KJV is not necessarily perfect in its translation.

When have I ever said that the KJV was a "perfect" translation?

And yes, it is apparent that Jesus was involved in the early days of Israel. After all, He is the Mighty One of Jacob/Israel. I believe He is the El Shaddai who appeared to Abraham and Jacob - which is why He told the Jews, before Abraham, I am. He is the being who delivered the law to Moses. Jesus also said He had sent the prophets to Jerusalem. He also said men had not seen the Father, but that the Son had declared Him. With the exception of Moses who had seen at least a part of the Father, men dealt with the servants of the Father - Jesus as YHWH Elohim, or the angel of the Lord.

Jack Terrence · Aug 24, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Is the underlined talking about Jesus or God?

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 24, 2014

Is the underlined talking about Jesus or God?

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life.

The Boxer said:

In John 17:3, Jesus adds "only" to that verse.

Again, is this Jesus or God?

John 17:
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father! the hour has come;
Glorify Thy Son! that the Son may glorify Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."

.

Der Alte · Aug 24, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
yes. I do. I was just asking you out of curiosity - you seem defensive.

Jesus said my words are life. So to follow the Word is the WAY to gain Eternal LIFE. So in this sense they are equated even though the grammatical meaning may not reveal all that.

Anyway, I guess you can open another commentary to see what men say, but I just thought I'd see what you actually believe.
Cheers

I guess you don't have your own opinion on those questions. OBTW I rarely quote commentaries.

Der Alte · Aug 24, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Is the underlined talking about Jesus or God?

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life.

The head editor and translator of the NET was Dr. Daniel Wallace, who has taught graduate level Greek for 30+ years.

NET 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know[sup]58[/sup] him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one[sup]59[/sup] is the true God and eternal life.

59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar. The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses life (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), life is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 24, 2014

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Is the underlined talking about Jesus or God?

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life.

Der Alter said:
The head editor and translator of the NET was Dr. Daniel Wallace, who has taught graduate level Greek for 30+ years.

NET 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know[sup]58[/sup] him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one[sup]59[/sup] is the true God and eternal life.

59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar. The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses life (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), life is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

Thanks. How about this verse? This appears to be Yahweh/God?

John 17:
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father! the hour has come;
Glorify Thy Son! that the Son may glorify Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."

.

Der Alte · Aug 24, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Thanks. How about this verse? This appears to be Yahweh/God?

John 17:
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father! the hour has come;
Glorify Thy Son! that the Son may glorify Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."

So it would seem. But,

Link to writings of the early church fathers (ECF).

Irenaeus Against Heresies [A.D. 120-202.] Disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John, Book 4

And again, He says to them a second time: And ye have made void the word of God by reason of your tradition; Christ confessing in the plainest manner Him to be Father and God, who said in the law, Honor thy father and mother; that it may be well with thee. For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] Exhortation To The Heathen

Chapter 1 Such are the reveries of my mysteries. If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Expository Treatise Against The Jews

4. Now Christ prayed all this economically as man; being, however, true God. But, as I have already said, it was the form of the servant that spake and suffered these things.

Novatian, A Roman Presbyter Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]

If Christ was only man, wherefore did He lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which He said, And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent? Had He not wished that He also should be understood to be God, why did He add, And Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent, except because He wished to be received as God also? Because if He had not wished to be understood to be God, He would have added, And the man Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent; but, in fact, He neither added this, nor did Christ deliver Himself to us as man only, but associated Himself with God, as He wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as He is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on Him whom He has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked Himself to the Father had He not wished to be understood to be God also: for He would have separated Himself from Him had He not wished to be understood to be God.

Alexander, Bishop Of Alexandria. (A.D. 273 - 326.) Oration Concerning Simeon And Anna

We, together with thee, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, Thou art the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God; the one Lord, before Thine assumption of the humanity; that One nevertheless, after Thine assumption of it, which is ever to be adored; God of Thine own self and not by grace, but for our sakes also perfect man; in Thine own nature the King absolute and sovereign, but for us and for our salvation existing also in the form of a servant.

The Seven Books Of Arnobius Against The Heathen (Adversus Gentes.) [A.D. 297 303.]

44. And yet it is agreed on that Christ performed all those miracles which He wrought without any aid from external things, without the observance of any ceremonial, without any definite mode of procedure, but solely by the inherent might of His authority; and as was the proper duty of the true God, as was consistent with His nature, as was worthy of Him, in the generosity of His bounteous power He bestowed nothing hurtful or injurious, but only that which is helpful, beneficial, and full of blessings good for men.

Jack Terrence · Aug 24, 2014

It is not difficult to determine that the pronoun houtos in 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus Christ. "He (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life." First, the whole scetion is about the Son (verses 13 and following). Furthermore, the Father is not called the "eternal life" in Johannine writings.

See Barne's Notes on verse 20. 1 John 5 - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

And don't put too much stock in Wallace. His notes are contradictory in many places and the Unitarians seize it to show inconsistencies in Trinitarianism.

Der Alte · Aug 24, 2014

The Boxer said:
It is not difficult to determine that the pronoun houtos in 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus Christ. "He (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life." First, the whole scetion is about the Son (verses 13 and following). Furthermore, the Father is not called the "eternal life" in Johannine writings.

See Barne's Notes on verse 20. 1 John 5 - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

And don't put too much stock in Wallace. His notes are contradictory in many places and the Unitarians seize it to show inconsistencies in Trinitarianism.

I doubt very much that Wallace's writings are contradictory. I'm sure that Unitarians allege a lot of errors/contradictions in a lot of writings, including Wallace, but I doubt very seriously that any who allege those "contradictions" could conugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it.

In 1 Jo. 5 : 20 ουτος really refers to αυτου (εν τω υιω αυτου) and so no difficulty exists.

A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, A. T. Robertson, Hodder & Stoughton, New York, 1914, p. 703

RevelationTestament · Aug 24, 2014

Der Alter said:
I guess you don't have your own opinion on those questions. OBTW I rarely quote commentaries.

You are the one who seems not to want to share his opinion...
That's fine. No skin off my teeth. I just thought maybe you had your own opinion, rather than what an encyclopedia says - although it is basically on point I'd say.
Peace

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 24, 2014

Ok, here's another verse. This one shows Jesus was with Yahweh before the beginning of the world.

(ESV)
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

(KJV)
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(YLT)
5 `And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

I did a word by word translation from the greek text.

The greek word #3844 precedes words that are in the dative case.

(with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively),

Jhn 17:5
“And now glorify Thee Me! Thou Father, beside/with Thyself,
to the glory which I had with Thee before, of the, the world to be beside/with Thee.

kai nun doxason me su pater para seautw
th doxh h eicon pro tou ton kosmon einai para soi

3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively),
(with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively),
(with accusative case) to the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal (on account of):--
above, against, among, at, before, by, contrary to, X friend, from, + give (such things as they), + that (she) had, X his, in, more than, nigh unto, (out) of, past, save, side...by, in the sight of, than, (there-)fore, with. In compounds it retains the same variety of application.

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

Our God is a consuming fire.

" ... each in our own order " , Hallelu-YAH .

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Fighting the good fight

Our God is a consuming fire.

Our God is a consuming fire.

he-man

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Fighting the good fight

Fighting the good fight

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Fighting the good fight

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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