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What is seriously lacking
in this is the understanding of the direct children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the people of Israel. An idea of God being a trinity is completely lacking in their understanding of God.
More important than that is the complete lack of specific correction to their misunderstanding of God in the New Testament.
God specifically corrected their misunderstanding of grace. God specifically corrected their misunderstanding of the place of the Gentiles in Gods Kingdom plans. I would say the correct understanding of the nature of God is more important than these teachings, yet, God gave no specific correction of their understanding of God as one and only one person.
There is no specific teaching of the trinity in the NT. There are only a few scriptures which can be twisted to fit the trinitarian definition.
Therefore, your attempt to use the pagan trinities to prove substance to the Christian trinity is entirely without foundation.
Give me just one verse which says I have to accept Jesus as God in order to have salvation.
Jesus came in the name of the Father, just like I was named after me dad. The Fathers name is Jesus. Jesus is the Father (the eternal Spirit of God) and also the Son. How is this possible? That is the mystery. Not that there is a mysterious trinity Godhead. The mystery is the mystery of Godliness how the Eternal Father (the Spirit of God) manifested in the flesh.
Certainly, you must realize by now that there is not one mention anywhere in the Old Covenant that God is three?
In stark contrast to all religions outside of Israel, the God of Israel was unique in that He was an indivisible One.
He has never even alluded to being three in the Old Covenant. Ever. He has explicitly declared and revealed Himself to the people of Israel as One,
and no savior besides Him,
He is the first and final
Please, Zone, dont tell me God was revealing Himself as a trinity to Noah.
He plainly was not and to allude to that is to be either plainly deceptive or unaware of the Old Covenant scriptures. Whenever, they built tabernacles or altars for God (i.e. Abraham, Jacob, etc.) they never built three because they believed there were three to worship. They built one tabernacle or altar for they knew He was One and they worshipped only One.
"There is one God. There is only one God. This doctrine is central to the Bible message, for both the Old Testament and the New Testament teach it plainly and emphatically. Despite the simplicity of this message and the clarity with which the Bible presents it, many who believe in the existence of God have not understood it. Even within Christendom many people, including theologians, have not comprehended this beautiful and essential message. Our purpose is to address this problem, and to affirm and explain the biblical doctrine of the oneness of God.
Within the ranks of trinitarianism, one can discern two extreme tendencies. On the one hand, some trinitarians emphasize the unity of God without having a carefully developed understanding of what is meant by three distinct persons in the Godhead. On the other hand, other trinitarians emphasize the threeness of the trinity to the point that they believe in three self-conscious beings, and their view is essentially tritheistic.
In summary, Christendom has produced four basic views of the Godhead: (1) trinitarianism, (2) binitarianism, (3) strict monotheism with a denial of the full deity of Jesus Christ, and (4) strict monotheism with an affirmation of the full deity of Jesus Christ, or Oneness."
Now according to the definition of monotheism and tritheism, and the comments that you agreed with from you first post, you have admitted to teaching and believing in a tritheisic god, not a monotheistic God.
Quote me scripture that says their is a mystery of the Godhead 3 in 1?Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Ahh, so lets replace one mystery with another...
At least the Trinity explains who Jesus prayed too...
Originally posted by jbenjesus
Quote me scripture that says their is a mystery of the Godhead 3 in 1?
Verses showing Plurality in the OT:
Gen. 1:26, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . ."
Gen. 19:24, "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven."
Amos 4:10-11, "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah . . . '"
Is. 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me . . . " See also, Isaiah 48:16.
Can we see God?
Gen. 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless."
Gen. 18:1, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."
Exodus 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.'"
Exodus 24:9-11, "Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank."
Exodus 33:11, "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend..."
Num. 12:6-8, "He [God] said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . "
Acts 7:2, "And he [Stephen] said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . "
Unlike most verses in the OT of this nature, the ones above do not say "visions", or "dreams", or the "Angel of the LORD" as a means of seeing God, but rather they say that people saw God, and that He was seen, and that He appeard as the God almighty.
How can this be?
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father.
So who were they seeing?
It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus; compare John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14:
John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father.
my quote:
and no savior besides Him,
your quote:
Except Jesus...
In the Old Covenant, God speaks of Himself as the first and the last. Putting yourself in this time period, you can understand that at this time, the name of God - Jesus, which is the name above all names, had not yet been revealed.my quote:
He is the first and final
your quote:
Now, I thought Jesus was the Alpha and Omega.. what do they mean again?
Well thank you for admitting that this opinion of yours is really speculation on your part. I dont think you realize, however, the ramifications of the insinuation that tritheistic pagan religions have the right ideas, just the wrong God. Major ramifications by just admitting that.my quote:
Please, Zone, dont tell me God was revealing Himself as a trinity to Noah.
your quote:
Not that we see in scripture, and I said I wasnt basing my view in scripture.. it was just a speculation using logic regarding the origin of Trinitarian concpets in pegan mythos which came about after Noah.
I noticed you cut off the latter half of the verse and the following verse. The latter half of the verse then speaks of him in singular terms. How do you explain the use of a plural pronoun for God and in the following verse a singular pronoun?
I dont understand what plurality you see in Genesis 19:24. Please explain. Are you going to tell me that one was the LORD and the other one was the LORD out of heaven, and so there are two LORDS? Cmon we know there is but One Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4 our God is one Lord) and this verse speaks of that One Lord.
Are you using Genesis 19:24 and Amos 4:10-11 to say that God and Lord are two different persons of the Godhead? Cmon Zone, any person reading this knows the Lord God was only talking about Himself and what He did. These verses are not saying that there is a God and there is a Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4 again). Please, dont tell me that is your argument?
I suppose your using this verse to say that the LORD the King of Israel is different than His redeemer the LORD of hosts? did you read the end of that sentence. It explicitly states there is no God beside Him alone.
Your using this verse to divorce the LORD God and His Spirit? Here, contrary to what you alluded to in using Genesis 19:24 and Amos 4:10-11, the LORD God is used. Meaning, when the LORD is used alone it is understood as meaning God, just as if it was written the LORD God. Now you will divorce the LORD God from His very own Spirit?
John 4:24 states, God is a Spirit By your sharing, you now teach, whether you meant it or not, that there are two eternal Spirits or two spirits of God.
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, and Ephesians 4:4 explicitly declares there is only one Spirit. Just because they (Hebrews) used the term Holy Spirit, didnt mean they recognized Him as a 2nd or 3rd person in the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is a very descriptive term of God that is used to show God in action. Again, the Jews were strict monotheist (one God) and never were they taught by God differently.
Isaiah 48:17 - Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Im sorry Zone, but in my assessment of what you have shared, you would rather rely on implicit statements (where you have to infer something by assumption which leads you to being presumptuous and therefore your results and your conclusions are biased based on your preconceived notion) in scripture. This invariably leads you to misunderstanding and misinterpretation scripture.
Ahh, but the Trinity Doctrine does this as well.Wouldnt you rather rely on explicit statements of scripture in trying to describe your 3 person one God?
Brother you added that and that is not there.
It says, Christs blood was Gods own blood.
Originally posted by jbenjesus
Well thank you for admitting that this opinion of yours is really speculation on your part. I dont think you realize, however, the ramifications of the insinuation that tritheistic pagan religions have the right ideas, just the wrong God. Major ramifications by just admitting that.
Where did I ever say that trinitarianims is not tritheism? Quote me please. I may have mistakenly put that, but I dont' think so. That has really been my whole point. It says it's monotheistic, but in practicality it's not. To me, it is neo-tritheistic, and I already explained why.You yourself said that trinitarianism is not tritheism. GO figure. You tried and failed to snare me there.
What does One say to you that Oneness differs from saying?Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Hmm.. well, lets talk terms a minute. One and Oneness are not saying the same thing. I agree that God is One, but i do not accept the Oneness philosophy.
That isn't an explanation.my quote:
I noticed you cut off the latter half of the verse and the following verse. The latter half of the verse then speaks of him in singular terms. How do you explain the use of a plural pronoun for God and in the following verse a singular pronoun?
your quote:
Trinity. yours?
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