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ScottishJohn

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I think that as long as we ourselves have nuclear weapons we have absolutely no credibility in trying to persuade other countries not to have them. We know that using them is out of the question, so does everyone else, so why not lead the way in getting rid of them.
 
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non-religious

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According to a BBC news source it's estimated to cost 25bn to replace Trident. It's a ridiculously scandalous way to waste money. The fact that terrorism takes a completely different approach these days (suicide bombs, potential chemical attacks etc..) means that their use is pretty much redundant. The hypocrisy of world leaders pontificating about the so-called dangers of North Korea or Iran having their own nuclear capabilities stinks.

Personally I just think the money could be used far more effectively on the ground
 
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ScottishJohn

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We own the subs, we own the bombs, we lease the missiles.

Correct, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Trident is the correct name for the missiles, not for the warheads or the submarines.

The 58 Trident missiles the UK currently has are leased from the US. The warheads (British design but probably based on the US W-76) and Submarines (the Vanguard class) are ours.
 
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holysee

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The Catholic Cardinal O'Brien of St Andrews and Edinburgh addressed this back in his Easter Sermon and I agree 100% with him http://www.archdiocese-edinburgh.com/cardinal/

 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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I think what His Holiness said makes a great deal of sense. Not only are we talking about £25 billion that is not being spent to help lives, it is actually being spent to kill and increase war and the threat of war. So, both my the ommision to spend this money on life, and the action of spending on death, we are being extremely immoral.

Also, I wonder why on earth we all seem to have swallowed the rubbish about it being an 'urgent' issue. We have until 2024 to sort this out...we have much less time than that to reverse climate change, reduce dependence on fossil fuels and meet targets on child poverty and international aid...why are we wasting time as well as money?

I think the only possible reason that this is being treated as urgent is that Tony Blair knows it has to be done now if it is going to be secured before he leaves his office. And, being obsessed with leaving a 'legacy', along with having a huge overestimation of the dangers of terrorim, he wants to be known as the man who saved the world in 2035 or whevener. Plus if he can get it done now, while he can still ensure a climate of fear, prejudice and irrational violence, then he can twist his successor's arm and make sure than common sense does not prevail in a future decision.

I'm glad to see so many people against this move...I'd really encourage everyone to write to their MPs to tell them they oppose this. The white paper is being released next week on December 4th.
 
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kurabrhm

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The nuclear arms race has been ongoing for decades. If the members of the permanent security council in the UN do not take action themselves in declaring that they are willing and able to gradually "get rid" of their nuclear arsenal, it will be very difficult to envisage other countries from ever doing the same. For instance, how can you expect countries such as Pakistan and India who are outside the UN permanent security council to start getting rid of their nuclear weapons when the countries who are in the permanent security council still hold on to theirs with great interest and great cost to international security? It simply wouldn't make sense for countries with less bargaining power to start with were to get rid of such a massive plus as a nuclear arsenal! If anything, India is acquiring more and more bargaining power by virtue of its nuclear arsenal. So to destroy them would be political sucicide on a global scale for India. The same process that India began over a decade ago is now underway in Iran to some extent and well underway in North Korea.

I dont think it will do any good if just one or two leading nations from random corners of the globe decide to start the nuclear disarmament race. It has to be a gradual process which starts at the highest and most effective level that we know was designed in theory to safeguard the world - The UN.
 
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ScottishJohn

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I agree that this is a difficult problem to resolve, but I don't see a way around it without some countries making the first move. By all means get the UN to lead the way, but in this country we are having this debate now, the action has to be taken in the next decade. Why spend £25 billion if all along we are aiming to make that investment redundant? I don't think our taking action now rules out the UN route. If anything it may bring more pressure to bear.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Even if our unilateral diarmament won't do any good in terms of universal disarmament (and I would certainly dispute that), the fact remains that it won't do any harm. And surely it is better not to waste £25 billion on something that definitely isn't going to help the situation.
 
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kurabrhm

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I think its paradoxical that Blair talks about nuclear weapons being important to the UK, yet if he spends at least a fraction of that investment money on tackling important problems like climate change and the environment more generally then we would all be better off.
 
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kurabrhm

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Yes the UK is a member of the permanent security council. So you are correct.
 
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Paddington

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It's sad that we need to have nuclear weapons but now that at least one country has them, all other countries need some sort of security. Trying to disarm every country would never work as one country would always keep some back or keep some back thinking other countries are going to.... now that nuclear weapons do exist I think it's a sad fact that we need to protect ourselves or risk being vulnerable.
 
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holysee

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http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_06125nukes.shtml

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] All the nation's leading churches and Christian organisations, together with fugures from other religious communities and a great number of humanists and non-aligned disarmament campaigners have lined up to oppose replacement of the Trident nuclear submarine system - which Mr Blair, while signallimng a debate, has thrown his full political weight behind.

They say that far from making the country safer, the nuclear weapons option encourages proliferation and adds to the threat of conflict and terror. But as with Iraq, the PM has indicated that he is not listening to alternative strategies at the moment.

However, leaders of the Baptist, United Reformed and Methodist denominations believe that Mr Blair should think again. And they are saying that their appeals for common sense to previal will go on.

The three churches have issued the following statement:

"Our churches urge the British Government to work tirelessly to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction. The end of the Cold War gave us hope that this aim is achievable. Replacing Trident would send the wrong message to aspiring nuclear powers. Each Trident warhead is capable of delivering destruction several times that of the Hiroshima bomb, therefore the proposed reduction in the number of warheads is largely academic."

They add: "Replacing Trident with a new system with a potential lifespan to 2050 flies in the face of commitments that the UK has made under the Non-Proliferation Treaty."

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/scmo746.html

[/FONT]The Bishops' Conference of Scotland has condemned the Government's decision to go ahead with the renewal of the Trident missile system.
At their meeting in Glasgow yesterday, the Scottish Bishops re-iterated their stance against nuclear weapons stating: "Since our first statement on the issue in 1982, Scotland,s Catholic Bishops have opposed the existence of nuclear weapons in our country. We renewed that opposition earlier this year with a call to the British government not to renew the Trident system."
The Bishops added: "We are dismayed to hear the Prime Minister confirm his support for a new generation of nuclear missiles. His decision flies in the face of widespread opposition from all sections of society and is deeply regrettable. Far from being weapons which keep peace, nuclear weapons imperil peace."


http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/cn/06/061121b.htm

Catholic Bishops Call on UK Government to Set the Example by Decommissioning Nuclear Weapons


The Church has always been clear in its teaching about the vital necessity for eventual total nuclear disarmament. Our judgement is that, by decommissioning its nuclear weapons, the UK now has a unique opportunity to offer the international community an approach to security and legitimate self-defence without the unconscionable threat of nuclear destruction. At the same time it could give a new impetus to the wider process towards total nuclear disarmament.
We recognise the Government’s grave responsibilities in these matters of security, both for our countries and the wider world. We urge the government to take a long-term view and act with courageous leadership by seeking to make this breakthrough towards total nuclear disarmament.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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The fact that so many organisations are specifically against replacement illustarates for me the very important point that the majority of the British public are opposed. It is shocking, though not surpirsing, that we have a situation whereby most people are against the weapons, but most of the politicans that supposedly represent them in our pseudo-democracy are in favour.

peace
 
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artjack

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some day you will need them anyhow, its best to be on advanced with them, I suppose these countrys would be happy on their own, its a bit like bullieing but if you want respect from madness then one should be glad to have them because there is alot of that in the world or are these people oppresed somehow, I dont know, anyway you are going to have them so enjoy.
 
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smith6959

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Its a difficult question but we need to have a nuclear deterrent, political leverage and deterrent. To leave ourselves a sitting duck would be ridiculous, we would have to rely on the Americans even more! It is also not just 'our' deterrent, it is part of NATO's defence strategy.
 
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RedAndy

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In this day and age, Trident is not a "nuclear deterrent." Quite simply, it didn't deter the terrorists who attacked London on 7/7, and it won't deter future terrorists.

The only use Trident would have is if a nuclear state became hostile towards the UK, but I am inclined to believe that such a situation would arise more readily if we did have nuclear weapons than if we didn't. Removing ourselves from the stage as a major global player will reduce our vulnerability in that it will make us less desirable to attack. In the end, the Trident situation boils down to one of national pride, and I'm willing to sacrifice what little credibility the UK has left on the international stage for advanced security and £25 billion not spent on weapons of mass destruction.
 
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