Treating People With Dignity and Respect.

Dear Ohioprof,

There are people who say that poor people deserve to be poor. They say that poor people lack initiative, that poor people need to work to better themselves and stop looking to government for help. There are indeed people who say this.

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I haven’t seen such comments, and If I did I would take the utmost interest.

Dear BigBadWlk

And if you do not like that…then perhaps you should look at how you use your views of religion to justify your personal prejudices.

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With respect, I am content, maybe you could look at your prejudice against God’s purposes when it comes to treating people with respect.

With respect, I am content, maybe you could look at your prejudice against God’s purposes when it comes to treating people with respect.

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I see you're still not prepared to say whether you accept the challenge that your opinion of what the Bible says is wrong. What would it make you feel if you came to realise that your interpretation of the Bible, deeply held as it is, was wrong?

I know it would make me feel uncomfortable, and I would have to do some serious rethinking. So far, nobody has persuaded me that my interpretation is wrong, but if they did, it would take me a while to take it in.

So, now, how would it make you feel if you were persauded that your interpretation was wrong? (This is a question for everyone, really)

Dear artybloke,

I see you're still not prepared to say whether you accept the challenge that your opinion of what the Bible says is wrong.

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First you need to recognise what the Bible says, only then can I discuss my opinion of it with you. At the moment you are largely denying anything it says which might incriminate same-sex sex.

First you need to recognise what the Bible says, only then can I discuss my opinion of it with you.

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So in other words, I have to agree with YOUR OPINION of what the Bible says before you'll tell me what the consequences of YOUR OPINION of what the Bibles says being wrong will be to you?

The whole point is that what you see in the Bible, I don't see, and what I see you don't see. What are the consequences for you of you seeing through my eyes? And vice versa of course.

Again, are you prepared to accept the possibility that your opinion of what the Bible says is wrong?

Phinehas2 said:

Dear artybloke,
First you need to recognise what the Bible says, only then can I discuss my opinion of it with you. At the moment you are largely denying anything it says which might incriminate same-sex sex.

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Christians disagree about what the Bible says. Christians disagree about whether the Bible condemns all same-sex relations. And the Bible says nothing at all about same-sex marriage. Nowhere does the Bible condemn our marriages. People who interpret the silence of the Bible as condemnation are making a giant leap of interpretation.

Dear artybloke,

So in other words, I have to agree with YOUR OPINION of what the Bible says before you'll tell me what the consequences of YOUR OPINION of what the Bibles says being wrong will be to you?

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No exactly not that. First you need to recognise what the Bible says, only then can I discuss my opinion of it with you.

The whole point is that what you see in the Bible, I don't see, and what I see you don't see.

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No the whole point is you do see it and refuse to believe it.

Let me repeat, my opinion of the Bible verses such as Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 5-7, 1 Tim 1, Rom 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1 are that they mean what they say. So far your opinion is that you dont accept they mean what they say.
The reason same-sex sex is error is because men with men instead of with women is stated as error and abomination.

Again, are you prepared to accept the possibility that your opinion of what the Bible says is wrong?

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That would make the Bible untrue. Thats what faith is all about, My opinion is I believe what it says is true.

Dear Ohioprof,

Christians disagree about what the Bible says.

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No I disagree. You keep sayiig this and I disagree. Christians agree about whether the Bible condemns all same-sex relations.
The Bible says nothing about same sex marriage because according to the Bible there is no such thing, marriage is a man and a woman. If one doesnt belieev the Bibel one can make all kinds of fantasies up about what the Bible doesnt say. Did you know the Bible says nothing at all about 16th Century Dutch tapestry?
People who interpret the silence of imaginary things in the Bible have been dreaming.

No the whole point is you do see it and refuse to believe it.

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No, the point is that the Devil has blinded you with prejudice to what the Bible really says.

There, two can play that game. In fact, we can take it as far as the Catholics and Protestants did about the Eucharist and start wars with each other.

Christians agree about whether the Bible condemns all same-sex relations.

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No they don't, and no amount of repetition will make them agree.

My opinion is I believe what it says is true.

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You have been blinded by the Devil to the true meaning of the Bible. Now prove me wrong.

You can carry on repeating that you know what the Bible says and other people don't for as long as you want. It still means that you're avoiding the possibility that you might be wrong.

Fundamentalism = moral cowardice.

BigBadWlf said:

And if you do not like that…then perhaps you should look at how you use your views of religion to justify your personal prejudices.

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Or maybe as the Lord has pointed out to many times, you we be hated because I was hated, persecuted because I was persecuted, etc.

I have no prejudices, but maybe if you say it often enough there will be those that will believe you.

Did the fact that Jesus said go and sin no more mean that He had personal prejudices to the woman caught in adultery?

Does the fact that the Matthew 18 tells us to point out...................well you can read it and draw your own conclusions as to what it says.

Show me any scripture where Jesus told someone they should continue in sin. I see scriptures like the rich man who came and ask Jesus what he must do to be saved, and Jesus said obey my commandments. The rich man said I have done that since my youth, and so Jesus said give up your possesses and follow me. The scriptures say the man went away sorrowful, because he was rich. Don't see anywhere that Jesus said oh nevermind come back you can keep your riches and still follow me. If you have somewhere in the scriptures that say that I would love to study that so please post it for me.

P.S. I am not sure how we got this far of the OP, but maybe we should get back to it out of respect to the OP. Frankly, no matter what or who is doing what sin they should be treated with dignity and respect. IMHO.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,
No I disagree. You keep sayiig this and I disagree. Christians agree about whether the Bible condemns all same-sex relations.
The Bible says nothing about same sex marriage because according to the Bible there is no such thing, marriage is a man and a woman. If one doesnt belieev the Bibel one can make all kinds of fantasies up about what the Bible doesnt say. Did you know the Bible says nothing at all about 16th Century Dutch tapestry?
People who interpret the silence of imaginary things in the Bible have been dreaming.

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If Christians agree about what the Bible says regarding same-sex relations, then why are all these Christians here disagreeing about it? Are they imaginary Christians?

It's plain that Christians disagree on what the Bible says about homosexuality, and that's why Christian churches like the Episcopal Church have gone through debates and splits over the question. If all Christians agreed, these debates and splits would not occur.

Indeed the Bible does not mention 16th-century Dutch tapestry, and no one claims therefore that the Bible condemns 16th-century Dutch tapestry. Nor does the Bible mention same-sex marriage, but some people insist that the Bible condemns same-sex marriage even though it's not mentioned. They are reading their personal beliefs into the silence in the Bible.

savedandhappy1 said:

Or maybe as the Lord has pointed out to many times, you we be hated because I was hated, persecuted because I was persecuted, etc.

I have no prejudices, but maybe if you say it often enough there will be those that will believe you.

Did the fact that Jesus said go and sin no more mean that He had personal prejudices to the woman caught in adultery?

Does the fact that the Matthew 18 tells us to point out...................well you can read it and draw your own conclusions as to what it says.

Show me any scripture where Jesus told someone they should continue in sin. I see scriptures like the rich man who came and ask Jesus what he must do to be saved, and Jesus said obey my commandments. The rich man said I have done that since my youth, and so Jesus said give up your possesses and follow me. The scriptures say the man went away sorrowful, because he was rich. Don't see anywhere that Jesus said oh nevermind come back you can keep your riches and still follow me. If you have somewhere in the scriptures that say that I would love to study that so please post it for me.

P.S. I am not sure how we got this far of the OP, but maybe we should get back to it out of respect to the OP. Frankly, no matter what or who is doing what sin they should be treated with dignity and respect. IMHO.

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I think we all have prejudices. Often we are unaware of them, which is why these kinds of forums can be very useful. They can expose to each of us our unexamined prejudices.

Dear artybloke,
quote] No, the point is that the Devil has blinded you with prejudice to what the Bible really says. [/quote] the opposite. The Bible texts have been presented, many of us have said we believe they mean what they say, you and others have said you don’t believe they mean what they say. Who can be blind?

No they don't, and no amount of repetition will make them agree.

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They don’t have to repeat it as they already agree, you are probably referring to Christians and non-Christians.

You have been blinded by the Devil to the true meaning of the Bible. Now prove me wrong.

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My opinion is that the Bible means what it says, you ought to consider you share the same contrary views with those who don’t believe the Bible.

You can carry on repeating that you know what the Bible says and other people don't for as long as you want. It still means that you're avoiding the possibility that you might be wrong.

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Of course I am also wrong if the Bible is wrong but as I said my opinion is that the Bible means what it says.

Fundamentalism = moral cowardice.

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Fair enough, if that’s your opinion, but my opinion differs… Fundamentally believing and following Jesus Christ is truth joy love and peace.

Dear Ohioprof,

If Christians agree about what the Bible says regarding same-sex relations, then why are all these Christians here disagreeing about it? Are they imaginary Christians?

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they aren’t disagreeing, all Christians are agreeing. It depends how you are defining Christian. Please don’t imply I am not a Christian, we don’t want to go down the definition of a Christian line again. Stick to what is your basis of belief rather than trying to categorise people.

but some people insist that the Bible condemns same-sex marriage even though it's not mentioned. They are reading their personal beliefs into the silence in the Bible.

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No you are putting words in their mouths. People who believe the Bible condemns same-sex unions can show you where the Bible condemns them.

And as you dont believe the Bible can you please start telling me the basis of your beliefs, at present the basis of your belief is your objection to the basis of my belief

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,

they aren’t disagreeing, all Christians are agreeing. It depends how you are defining Christian. Please don’t imply I am not a Christian, we don’t want to go down the definition of a Christian line again. Stick to what is your basis of belief rather than trying to categorise people.

No you are putting words in their mouths and are slandering them. People who believe the Bible condemns same-sex unions can show you where the Bible condemns them.

And as you dont believe the Bible can you please start telling me the basis of your beliefs, at present the basis of your belief is your objection to the basis of my belief

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I have simply noted the reality, that Christians, who categorize themselves, disagree with each other over what the Bible says about same-sex relations. You have been debating with some of those Christians. They are here in these threads. They self-identify as Christians just as you do, but they interpret the Bible differently than you do when it comes to same-sex relations.

Why would I ever label you not a Christian? I do not label people Christian or not; people have the right and the power to name themselves. If you say you are a Christian, I believe you. I have always recognized you as a Christian. I have simply pointed out that other Christians who believe the Bible is the word of God disagree with you over what it says about same-sex relations.

I slander no one. I simply point out that nowhere does the Bible condemn same-sex marriages or same-sex unions. If you can show me where the Bible does this, then by all means do so. I suspect you will pull up the same old few verses that many interpret as condemning sex between two men. But sex between two men is not the same as same-sex marriages or same-sex unions, which are the same thing as marriages but by a different name.

Nowhere have I objected to your beliefs. I disagree with some of your beliefs. But I don't object to them, as you are free to believe what you wish. I have asked questions about your beliefs, to try to understand them better. In response to your question, I base my beliefs on my life experience and on a variety of written and other sources of information and evidence.

Ohioprof said:

I think we all have prejudices. Often we are unaware of them, which is why these kinds of forums can be very useful. They can expose to each of us our unexamined prejudices.

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This OP isn't about prejudices, and just saying someone has one doesn't make it so. If I told someone that was committing adultery that they needed to repent of that sin because they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, would that then mean that I am prejudice to those who are caught in adultery?

As stated at the end of my post we have gotten off topic, so for respect of the OP we should get back to it.

If you want to talk about prejudices maybe you could start a thread for that, but we really shouldn't derail someone elses thread.

again if sin is called sin in the Bible how one can believe that its not WOW

savedandhappy1 said:

This OP isn't about prejudices, and just saying someone has one doesn't make it so. If I told someone that was committing adultery that they needed to repent of that sin because they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, would that then mean that I am prejudice to those who are caught in adultery?

As stated at the end of my post we have gotten off topic, so for respect of the OP we should get back to it.

If you want to talk about prejudices maybe you could start a thread for that, but we really shouldn't derail someone elses thread.

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I did not bring up the subject of prejudice. I responded to what YOU said about prejudice. If you say something about whether you harbor prejudice, people will respond to what you say.

The subject of prejudice is tied to how we treat other people, whether we treat them with dignity and respect, and so your bringing it up is certainly not off topic for this thread. Also, a thread does not belong to someone. If I start a thread, it's not my thread. People are free to take the thread in different directions related to the OP.

In answer to the comparison you made, people are not born adulterers the way people are born women or born gay or born African American or born Irish. Being an adulterer is not an identity that people have through the course of their lives. It's something some people do, usually with regrets. We don't make people who commit adultery wear forever a scarlet A.

Being gay is a personal identity; it's not an act. I am gay whether I have a relationship or not or whether I have sex or not. I am currently not in a relationship with a spouse, and I do not have sex. That does not make me any less gay. Prejudice is pre-judging people. If someone pre-judges another on the basis of who they are, then they are exhibiting prejudice. To judge what a person does is to render judgment, but it's not prejudice, because it's judging an action. Adultery is an action. Being gay is simply who a person is.

Most of the Christians here say they do treat gay people with dignity and respect, though we would need to see how people actually live their lives to know for sure. A few people clearly do not treat gay people with dignity and respect, probably because they harbor prejudice against gay people. I try to recognize and get rid of my own prejudices, because I think prejudice is harmful, and it undermines our treating fellow human beings with dignity and respect. I do judge other people's actions sometimes, most often on the basis of whether those actions harm others. That's not prejudice; it's simply judgment. Perhaps some of my judgments are wrong. It depends on what I am judging, I think.

Templedweller said:

again if sin is called sin in the Bible how one can believe that its not WOW

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It's not clear what the Bible is calling sin when it comes to same-sex relations, or whether the Bible calls same-sex relations sin. The Bible nowhere calls same-sex marriage a sin.

Dear Ohioprof,

I have simply noted the reality, that Christians, who categorize themselves, disagree with each other over what the Bible says about same-sex relations.

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So there is impersonation. Your definition of Christian is different yet you keep trying to force it on people. Anyone can call themselves anything they like. Forget who you think is Christian and stick to the issue.

I simply point out that nowhere does the Bible condemn same-sex marriages or same-sex unions.

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Sorry but I have pointed out that it does condemn same-sex unions and marriage is a man woman union so there is no such thing as same-sex marriage.
As I keep saying, you have said you dont believe the Bible yet you keep referring to what you dont believe about it, so I am not interested in what you don’t believe I am interested in what you do believe. You don’t believe the Bible, so talk about what you do believe, the basis of your belief. At present the basis of your belief is your disbelief of the Bible.

If I told someone that was committing adultery that they needed to repent of that sin because they will not inherit the

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Kingdom of God, would that then mean that I am prejudice to those who are caught in adultery?

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Ok but if they don’t believe in God why would they want you to tell them about Godly issues? But if they did believe in God it wouldn’t be the person telling them it would be the person pointing them to what God says.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,
So there is impersonation. Your definition of Christian is different yet you keep trying to force it on people. Anyone can call themselves anything they like. Forget who you think is Christian and stick to the issue.

Sorry but I have pointed out that it does condemn same-sex unions and marriage is a man woman union so there is no such thing as same-sex marriage.
As I keep saying, you have said you dont believe the Bible yet you keep referring to what you dont believe about it, so I am not interested in what you don’t believe I am interested in what you do believe. You don’t believe the Bible, so talk about what you do believe, the basis of your belief. At present the basis of your belief is your disbelief of the Bible.

Ok but if they don’t believe in God why would they want you to tell them about Godly issues? But if they did believe in God it wouldn’t be the person telling them it would be the person pointing them to what God says.

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No one here that I have seen is "impersonating" a Christian. I define myself, my friend; I do not try to force anything on anyone else. How I define myself is up to me, not to anyone else. I do not judge whether or not you are a Christian; if you say you are a Christian, I accept and honor that. I accept and honor that we disagree about same-sex relations.

You suggest in your post that those who disagree with your views are impersonating Christians. Are you suggesting that those in the Episcopal Church who support Gene Robinson and who do not regard same-sex relations as sinful are impersonating Christians? They certainly consider themselves to be Christians. And they include the leaders of the Episcopal Church.

To say that all Christians agree about homosexuality is, in my view, to bury one's head in the sand and refuse to see what's going on in the churches today. There are gay Christians, and there are Christians who believe in the Bible and who believe that same-sex relations are not a sin. You have been engaging in debates with some of those Christians. Indeed, if all Christians agreed on the subject of homosexuality, there would be no debate subforum in Christian theology that addresses this topic. It's because Christians do not agree about this that this is such a hot topic of debate.

I think most Christians probably do agree that gay people should be treated with dignity and respect. There are exceptions, of course. Fred Phelps is the extreme. There have also been some posters in these threads who have not treated gay people with respect. I think you have always been respectful toward gay people. Most of the Christians I have asked about this have said they believe in treating gay people with respect, as equals, and they have pointed to friends and family members who are gay. That this is an area of mostly common agreement is heartening to me. I really don't care whether other Christians regard same-sex relations as a sin so long as they do not advocate discrimination against gay people in the public sphere, outside the churches, and so long as they treat us with dignity and respect. That's all we can ask. People have to be free to believe as they choose, I think, and to set church policy based on their beliefs. Churches should always be free to welcome or not welcome whomever they choose. That's religious liberty.