Trappings

[BenAdam]

Ben (King ZZub) and I had an interesting discusssion going. So as to not derail the other thread, we are moving discussion here.

It think that was my point: nearly every Christian I know would describe themselves as charismatic without all the ridiculous trappings.

I don't know anyone who in response to the age old question "What KIND of Christian are you?" responds "You know, the kind surrounded with ludicrous ideas and ridiculous trappings, haha-heehee-hoho".

What is one man's ridiculous trapping is another man's sacrosanct tradition.

I for one think that calling someone a prayer warrior and pulling down demons over cities is a ridiculous - not to mention timewasting and defeatist - trapping. But as I have found recently - to some people that is the core of their Christianity.

You may call the believe that you will reap what you sow and that if you give it shall be given to you pressed down shaken together running over a ridiculous trapping. I think it is core doctrine. I don't believe that your life problems or even your financial problems will ever be solved in a single offering as occasionally some fringe WoF people seem to say, but I believe in giving to get as an essential part of my Christian walk.

The world says the devil is in the details. Maybe God is in the details.

I am just saying that if you define yourself as a Christian who operates in the gifts in a Biblical and non-ridiculous way, you are defining yourself the same way as I suspect Jimmy Swaggart, Don Stewart and Andrew Wommack would. In my book only one of those is truly non-ridiculous... but that is another debate.

Another example is the pre-trib rapture which many Christians to me seem to be aggressively distancing themselves from as if it was a ridiculous trapping. I am pre-trib and I am pre-millennial - is that a ridiculous trapping?

I would love your opinion Ben on the sermon I preached on Thursday (Tree of Life Church, London and Essex, international month, sermon 5: House of Prayer because I deal with legalism and I believe the root of every ridiculous trapping is legalism).

I would also love to know what you consider ridiculous trappings and if you are self-aware enough to mention a belief that you hold dear than many (or even some) might regard as a ridiculous trapping.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[KingZzub]

Ball is still in your court, BA.

 

[BenAdam]

I am aware. I will listen to your sermon over the weekend and also write up a thoughtful and hopefully cogent reply to your other questions.

 

[KingZzub]

I appreciate you taking that time from your life and I look forward to your response. If anyone else wants to join in: what do they see as ridiculous trappings, or more importantly what do you hold dear that you know other people put in the woo-hoo loo-nee box.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[gratefulgrace]

Ridiculous trappings of Christianity. Thankfully gone but it was wearing hats in church. I think my hubby would say having to wear a suit to church.

 

[KingZzub]

I like wearing hats... BenAdam would like a big hat with a skull and crossbones...

 

[gratefulgrace]

Not sure how THAT would go over but whatever trappings you prefer is ok with me. Just don't make it a rule at your church.

 

[CindyisHis]

nearly every Christian I know would describe themselves as charismatic without all the ridiculous trappings.

I don't know anyone who in response to the age old question "What KIND of Christian are you?" responds "You know, the kind surrounded with ludicrous ideas and ridiculous trappings, haha-heehee-hoho".

Excellent point, Ben.

It's easier to see the trappings we have been freed of. What is thought provoking is, what is there still I am entangled in?

Makes me think of the Pharisees of Jesus day who were bent out of shape over eating with unwashed hands, the ceremonial washing that someone had started, not something in the law of Moses. When the Pharisees observed Jesus' disciples eating with unwashed hands they were indignant.

Jesus said something very interesting as He rebuked them. He said their human traditions had made the Word of God of no effect.

 

[Zugzwang]

Bible commentaries, most "christian books".
Since when did we give up on the spirit teaching us what he said? why is someone's definition of what is meant in scripture better or "the truth" compared to what HE said?

and for crying out loud, STOP reading books about the bible, and read the bible! if we put half the time in our relationship to the lord as we do these stupid "books", we'd have most the answers to our questions! God WANTS to share his knowledge with us. He WANTS to know us better and answer our questions, and is willing, yet alas He is pushed aside for the "next best thing" coming out next week for only $19.95 & $7.95 S&H!

*sigh.

 

[gratefulgrace]

I tend to agree zugzwang

 

[BenAdam]

Response time.

It think that was my point: nearly every Christian I know would describe themselves as charismatic without all the ridiculous trappings.

Although I agree, I think most people in the Church do not take time to examine what we do with the light of Scripture. We tend to follow the herd.

I don't know anyone who in response to the age old question "What KIND of Christian are you?" responds "You know, the kind surrounded with ludicrous ideas and ridiculous trappings, haha-heehee-hoho".

What is one man's ridiculous trapping is another man's sacrosanct tradition.

Yet, many people come out of these kind of places realizing that (just as the Jews had done) the traditions they held as sacrosanct have no scriptural foundation. This traditions often allow corruption to creep in and then you get Luthers, Calvins, Wesleys, etc.

I for one think that calling someone a prayer warrior and pulling down demons over cities is a ridiculous - not to mention timewasting and defeatist - trapping. But as I have found recently - to some people that is the core of their Christianity.

I would agree with your assesment, but would you agree that it is a corruption or an extreme of something vital to our calling, prayer?

You may call the believe that you will reap what you sow and that if you give it shall be given to you pressed down shaken together running over a ridiculous trapping. I think it is core doctrine. I don't believe that your life problems or even your financial problems will ever be solved in a single offering as occasionally some fringe WoF people seem to say, but I believe in giving to get as an essential part of my Christian walk.

I actually believe that reaping and sowing is true, scripture tells me that. My issues with it are not in the truth of it, but in some people's application. I also believe that giving is essential to the Christian walk.

The world says the devil is in the details. Maybe God is in the details.

Interesting thought.

I am just saying that if you define yourself as a Christian who operates in the gifts in a Biblical and non-ridiculous way, you are defining yourself the same way as I suspect Jimmy Swaggart, Don Stewart and Andrew Wommack would. In my book only one of those is truly non-ridiculous... but that is another debate.

Another example is the pre-trib rapture which many Christians to me seem to be aggressively distancing themselves from as if it was a ridiculous trapping. I am pre-trib and I am pre-millennial - is that a ridiculous trapping?

I will answer this at lenght at the end.

I would love your opinion Ben on the sermon I preached on Thursday (Tree of Life Church, London and Essex, international month, sermon 5: House of Prayer because I deal with legalism and I believe the root of every ridiculous trapping is legalism).

The sermon was most excellent. I liked how you related what Malachi (I think that was who you said) said about the sacrifices that were being brought, to what Jesus did with the whip of cords. I think you hit legalism on the nose though. I agree with just about everything you stated.

I would also love to know what you consider ridiculous trappings and if you are self-aware enough to mention a belief that you hold dear than many (or even some) might regard as a ridiculous trapping.

Blessings,
Ben

Trappings are loosely defined as outward decorations or dress. In the current discussion it can be seen as something we do that has no scriptual basis or moreso that isn't clearly defined by scripture. I would add that it is something that we make as important as scripture or believe is in scripture.

It is hard to make a list of trappings, because it deals more with attitudes about a thing rather than the thing itself. For example, many churches have a specific Sunday of the month they take Communion on. No problem with that, but some places get weird if you 1) Have Communion on a different day, or 2) Don't have Communion on that specific Sunday. Communion isn't a trapping, neither is day you take it, rather, the legalism about it needing to be on a specific day. I hope you see where I am coming from on that.

You mentioned how people distance themselves from Pretrib doctrines. I think any escatalogical outlook can become a trapping. I know of people that think you cannot be a Christian without holding Pretrib doctrine, I also know of some that think if you hold anything but Preterism views, you are apostate.

In other words, it is all the junk that we do that we hold to the level of scritpure, that isn't. We all do it, the issue is when it starts to get institutionalized.

 

[KingZzub]

Response time.

Is that like Hammer time...

Although I agree, I think most people in the Church do not take time to examine what we do with the light of Scripture. We tend to follow the herd.

Sometimes I wish I could just follow the herd. I would get a lot less attention and grief!

Yet, many people come out of these kind of places realizing that (just as the Jews had done) the traditions they held as sacrosanct have no scriptural foundation. This traditions often allow corruption to creep in and then you get Luthers, Calvins, Wesleys, etc.

True. I personally have no problem with traditions of form - such as meeting in a church with stained glass windows or wearing a dog collar. My issue is the traditions that make God's Word of no effect, like "God doesn't heal today" or so on. Or "God doesn't heal unless you speak in tongues for 3 hours, say five hail marys and give £1000 to our church".

I would agree with your assesment, but would you agree that it is a corruption or an extreme of something vital to our calling, prayer?

Personally speaking now I think "standing in the gap" and the term "intercession" are unfortunately people expressing badly the simple concept: praying for someone else. They make prayer inaccessible to people.

I think the concept of spiritual warfare in the sense of praying against demons in a town horrifically unbiblical and a complete misunderstanding of our redemption.

I actually believe that reaping and sowing is true, scripture tells me that. My issues with it are not in the truth of it, but in some people's application. I also believe that giving is essential to the Christian walk.

Can't argue with that!

Interesting thought.

I need to study it out in the Word at some point.

The sermon was most excellent. I liked how you related what Malachi (I think that was who you said) said about the sacrifices that were being brought, to what Jesus did with the whip of cords. I think you hit legalism on the nose though. I agree with just about everything you stated.

Thank you for your kind words. I personally believe that legalism is the key issue that needs to be dealt with for the church to develop and see the kingdom of God in its midst.

Trappings are loosely defined as outward decorations or dress. In the current discussion it can be seen as something we do that has no scriptual basis or moreso that isn't clearly defined by scripture. I would add that it is something that we make as important as scripture or believe is in scripture.

It is hard to make a list of trappings, because it deals more with attitudes about a thing rather than the thing itself. For example, many churches have a specific Sunday of the month they take Communion on. No problem with that, but some places get weird if you 1) Have Communion on a different day, or 2) Don't have Communion on that specific Sunday. Communion isn't a trapping, neither is day you take it, rather, the legalism about it needing to be on a specific day. I hope you see where I am coming from on that.

That is a brilliant way of looking at it. I realize as I am planting a church that even in a few short weeks I have started traditions. People dress to my level (jeans and shirt), pray like I pray, and have communion first Sunday of the month. But when these things are set in stone, there are problems. I wore a very smart suit last Thursday at our mid-week meeting just to change things a bit and mean that people did not hold dress more important than the content of the message.

When people won't go to a healing meeting because of the hair style of the preacher, there are problems in the charismatic church!

You mentioned how people distance themselves from Pretrib doctrines. I think any escatalogical outlook can become a trapping. I know of people that think you cannot be a Christian without holding Pretrib doctrine, I also know of some that think if you hold anything but Preterism views, you are apostate.

In other words, it is all the junk that we do that we hold to the level of scritpure, that isn't. We all do it, the issue is when it starts to get institutionalized.

True.

Blessings,
Ben