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Translation and prejudice

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BigBadWlf

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In various threads there are many claiming that the obscure Greek work αρσενοκοιται OBVIOUSLY translates to mean homosexual and that not only is this translation accurate it has always been the translation.


Yet there is no evidence to support this translation.

For those of you who make this claim please provide evidence that αρσενοκοιται translates to homosexual
 

Zaac

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In various threads there are many claiming that the obscure Greek work αρσενοκοιται OBVIOUSLY translates to mean homosexual and that not only is this translation accurate it has always been the translation.


Yet there is no evidence to support this translation.

For those of you who make this claim please provide evidence that αρσενοκοιται translates to homosexual

I keep wondering why, when folks do not rightly divide the ENGLISH, why they turn to the Greek and the Hebrew?

If your comprehension of the English is wrong, your comprehension of the Hebrew and the Greek will also be wrong.

Nobody proving what the Hebrew and Greek say is gonna convince a homosexual or a liberal that all homosexual sex is a sin.
 
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Braunwyn

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I keep wondering why, when folks do not rightly divide the ENGLISH, why they turn to the Greek and the Hebrew?
Divide the english?

If your comprehension of the English is wrong, your comprehension of the Hebrew and the Greek will also be wrong.

Nobody proving what the Hebrew and Greek say is gonna convince a homosexual or a liberal that all homosexual sex is a sin.
This is an odd post. So, correct translation shouldn't matter?
 
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Zaac

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Divide the english?

It's about discernment and context. Both of which are kept straight and correct when we go to GOD for HIS understanding of HIS WORD.


This is an odd post. So, correct translation shouldn't matter?

Again, when it comes to God's word, this is why folks should not presume to be teachers.

Word studies are to give us a deeper understanding of what God's word says and thus a deeper relationship with HIM. They ARE NOT to disprove what He says.

If you can't accept the ENGLISH AS IS, you're gonna take that bias and errant understanding into the Greek and Hebrew.
 
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Braunwyn

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It's about discernment and context. Both of which are kept straight and correct when we go to GOD for HIS understanding of HIS WORD.
I've never heard "divide the english" before. Admittedly, I'm no linguistics expert. Are these terms commonly used together in lit circles?

Again, when it comes to God's word, this is why folks should not presume to be teachers.

Word studies are to give us a deeper understanding of what God's word says and thus a deeper relationship with HIM. They ARE NOT to disprove what He says.

If you can't accept the ENGLISH AS IS, you're gonna take that bias and errant understanding into the Greek and Hebrew.
This seems backwards to me. If text is translated incorrectly, than why does it matter how how well it is understood? Given that the original text is what's important of course.
 
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BigBadWlf

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I keep wondering why, when folks do not rightly divide the ENGLISH, why they turn to the Greek and the Hebrew?

If your comprehension of the English is wrong, your comprehension of the Hebrew and the Greek will also be wrong.

Nobody proving what the Hebrew and Greek say is gonna convince a homosexual or a liberal that all homosexual sex is a sin.
In other words you acknowledge that the translation of arsenokoites to mean homosexual is wrong and without support
 
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Zaac

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I've never heard "divide the english" before. Admittedly, I'm no linguistics expert. Are these terms commonly used together in lit circles?

When I say the English as I did, I am specifically referring to the English words. Meaning the Scriptures as given in English. It must be rightly divided in English FIRST.

If a Christian is doing what He is supposed to do as far as leaning not on his own understanding, but going to God for HIS understanding FIRST(Proverbs 3:5-6), he's gonna be reading what He is going to God about in his native tongue. In this case the English.

Unless a person reads/speaks Hebrew and Greek and is doing their reading/study from a Hebrew Stuttgartensia or a Greek New Testament it makes for poor theology and errant understanding to go to the Greek/Hebrew when you reject what the English says.


This seems backwards to me. If text is translated incorrectly, than why does it matter how how well it is understood? Given that the original text is what's important of course.

What reason would anyone reading the English have for thinking that the text is incorrectly translated other than someone with a preconceived bias telling them so?

The average person doesn't run to the Greek/Hebrew when they feel something can't be right. The average person doesn't read Hebrew/Greek.

They usually look at other areas of the Scripture that are in English(or their native tongue) for the same terms so that they can let Scripture testify to what Scripture means.

And then, for a deeper understanding of what the English has already testified of itself to say, you then go to the Greek/Hebrew.

Unless a person is reading ALL of Scripture in Greek/Hebrew, it makes for very poor theology and easy confusion and contradiction of the word to take the Greek/Hebrew and place it in the context of the English(or native tongue).

That's why Biblical word studies, when used as they are intended, will enhance the understanding of the native tongue. It will not attempt to prove the English(native tongue) incorrect.
 
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BigBadWlf

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It's about discernment and context. Both of which are kept straight and correct when we go to GOD for HIS understanding of HIS WORD.
there is no evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual and that includes contextual evidence.

Again if you have such evidence please post it and share it with all of us





Again, when it comes to God's word, this is why folks should not presume to be teachers.
You mean like you are presuming to teach here


Word studies are to give us a deeper understanding of what God's word says and thus a deeper relationship with HIM. They ARE NOT to disprove what He says.
Sounds like you are saying you don’t mind the active study and research into the origin and meaning of words…so long as the findings support your opinions

If you can't accept the ENGLISH AS IS, you're gonna take that bias and errant understanding into the Greek and Hebrew.
Well then show us bias free evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual
 
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Zaac

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In other words you acknowledge that the translation of arsenokoites to mean homosexual is wrong and without support

Nope. I mean that unless you are reading ALL of Scripture in the Greek and Hebrew and getting the context of a word THAT WAY in conjunction with God's understanding, then it means NOTHING to tell us that one word is incorrectly translated in the English.:thumbsup:
 
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WatersMoon110

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I admit that I don't understand Paul's word "αρσενοκοιται" very well. I don't speak or read ancient Greek, and I wasn't around in the year 60 CE (I think that is the estimated date, but I might be thinking of the Gospel of Mark) when Paul wrote it, to ask him what he meant.

But I did try and find someone else's logical/historical argument that backs up my opinions on the definition of this word:
Looking at 1 Timothy 1:8-10: "We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."
Let us keep in mind that the word translated as [perverts] is the Greek word arsenokoitai. Right now we should ask, “What exactly does this word mean?” Often when writing lists, common things are grouped together. Looking closely at 1 Timothy 1:9-10, we can see that there are what I will call ‘structural pairs’ that are reflected below in the English as well as in the Greek–the original language of the New Testament.

Diagram1.jpg


As you will notice there seems to be a relationship between the words in each row. The chart below illustrates that the words in each row are either synonyms or closely related in some manner:

Diagram2.jpg


But what about row E? What do “immoral persons, sodomites, and kidnappers” have in common? To answer this question beyond a shadow of a doubt, we will need to explore the Greek. The three Greek words present in line E are: pornoi (πορνοι), arsenokoitai (αρσενοκοιται), and andrapodistai (ανδραποδισται).

Some commonly read Bible translations include the King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), New King James (NKJ), Revised Standard Version (RSV), and New English Bible (NEB). These words were, respectively, translated in the following manner:

Diagram3.jpg


As we see there is no clear-cut agreement as to what these words mean, though the above translations agree on the general sense of such words. To determine the precise meanings, we will use a lexicon. A lexicon is a scholarly dictionary used to determine the meaning of biblical words. A search through the online Greek lexicon available at searchgodsword.org
gives the following information on the Greek term pornos, which is the stem of the word pornoi, the first of the three words:

Pornos derives from the verb pernemi meaning “to sell” and the following three definitions are given:
1. a male who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire
2. a male prostitute
3. a male who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Andrapodistes, the stem of the word Andrapodistai, the third word, returns the following definitions:
1. slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer
a. of one who unjustly reduces free males to slavery
b. of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them.

Arsenokoitai, as previously indicated, is made up of the Greek words for male (arseno-) and beds (koitai). In Greek, the word koitai, literally meaning beds, is commonly used as a euphemism for one who has sex. Arseno- is an adjectival prefix, thus literally we could translate this as “a man who has sex” or “male bedder.”

We have, first of all, a male prostitute, the “male-bedder” (arsenokoitai), and the slave dealer. The New American Bible, a version authorized by the Roman Catholic Church, offers a footnote that might shed some light on the historical context of the time:

“The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the "cupbearer of the gods," whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.” (New American Bible)

It was a common practice in that men of Paul’s time would have slave “pet” boys whom they sexually exploited. Dr. Ralph Blair explains, “The desired boys were prepubescent or at least without beards so that they seemed like females.” Today, this practice is referred to as pederasty. Regardless, we know the pornos is a prostitute.

Keeping this in mind, let’s look back at what we have so far: the enslaved male prostitute, the “male-bedder” (arsenokoitai), and the slave dealer. This contextual dynamic leads one to understand arsenokoitai as being the one who sleeps with the prostitute—the man who literally lies on the bed with him. It is as if Paul were saying, “male prostitutes, males who lie [with them], and slave dealers [who procure them].” Not only does the syntactical and historical context point to this understanding, but also the very literal sense of the word arsenokoitai itself: male bed.
Source This paper is interesting, and goes on with the argument. But I find it's definition for the word αρσενοκοιται to be interesting, and similar to my feelings on what the word means.
 
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Zaac

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there is no evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual and that includes contextual evidence.

Again if you have such evidence please post it and share it with all of us

I majored in Biblical Languages in Seminary. And unless you can fluently read Hebrew/Greek, I can't contextually show you that.

But that's why I said choosing one word and saying it means something in the Hebrew/Greek really doesn't mean anything if you're dealing with people who are reading/studying in English.

Because your average person does not read Hebrew/Greek, the word studies were to help folks garner a deeper meaning, not disprove, for what their native tongue says

You mean like you are presuming to teach here

It's one of my gifts. And God will hold me responsible for what I teach. That's why I don't dare teach anything that contradicts His word.:)


Sounds like you are saying you don’t mind the active study and research into the origin and meaning of words…so long as the findings support your opinions

Nope. What I'm saying is when people go into word studies looking to prove that the English(or native tongue) doesn't say what it should, then they have already gone farther than they needed to.


Well then show us bias free evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual

Homosexual is a modern term. Why would it be in the Greek or the Hebrew?
 
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Freodin

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Nope. I mean that unless you are reading ALL of Scripture in the Greek and Hebrew and getting the context of a word THAT WAY in conjunction with God's understanding, then it means NOTHING to tell us that one word is incorrectly translated in the English.:thumbsup:

But how do you get "God´s understanding", when you start from incorrectly translated terms?
 
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BigBadWlf

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When I say the English as I did, I am specifically referring to the English words. Meaning the Scriptures as given in English. It must be rightly divided in English FIRST.
Scripture wasn’t given in English. Modern English is only a few centuries old.

If a Christian is doing what He is supposed to do as far as leaning not on his own understanding, but going to God for HIS understanding FIRST(Proverbs 3:5-6), he's gonna be reading what He is going to God about in his native tongue. In this case the English.
how can this happen when translations are faulty?

Unless a person reads/speaks Hebrew and Greek and is doing their reading/study from a Hebrew Stuttgartensia or a Greek New Testament it makes for poor theology and errant understanding to go to the Greek/Hebrew when you reject what the English says.

It behooves any and all to investigate language and translation, especially when there are issues in translation.
Why should people accept a possibly faulty translation?





What reason would anyone reading the English have for thinking that the text is incorrectly translated other than someone with a preconceived bias telling them so?
Perhaps it would be radical changes in translation as the translation of arsenokoites has radically changed over time


The average person doesn't run to the Greek/Hebrew when they feel something can't be right. The average person doesn't read Hebrew/Greek.
Again it behooves any and all to investigate language and translation, especially when there are issues in translation.
Why should people accept a possibly faulty translation?


They usually look at other areas of the Scripture that are in English(or their native tongue) for the same terms so that they can let Scripture testify to what Scripture means.
Arsenokoites appears twice in scripture. It is usually translated differently in each instance. A good indication that there is something wrong with the translation


And then, for a deeper understanding of what the English has already testified of itself to say, you then go to the Greek/Hebrew.
Which doesn’t support the translation at all


Unless a person is reading ALL of Scripture in Greek/Hebrew, it makes for very poor theology and easy confusion and contradiction of the word to take the Greek/Hebrew and place it in the context of the English(or native tongue).
Nonsense.
I don’t need to be fluent in French to examine the translation of deja vu

We are speaking of one word…a word that has been translated a dozen different ways and currently is claimed to translate as homosexual yet there remains nothing to support this translation


That's why Biblical word studies, when used as they are intended, will enhance the understanding of the native tongue. It will not attempt to prove the English(native tongue) incorrect.

We are all still waiting for anyone to present evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual.

So far all you have done is flame anyone who dares to question the translation you want.
 
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Braunwyn

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What reason would anyone reading the English have for thinking that the text is incorrectly translated other than someone with a preconceived bias telling them so?
Why do people question anything? The idea of concepts being lost in translation is no secret. I imagine any history scholar, theologian, or philosopher is going investigate the origin of the text of interest. I also wouldn't assume that most people care for the idea of aligning themselves with cattle that are spoon-fed and lead along without question. Inquiry and skeptism are a natural part of the learning process.

The average person doesn't run to the Greek/Hebrew when they feel something can't be right. The average person doesn't read Hebrew/Greek.
That would depend on where an individual's interests lay. If biblical study is what's important to a person, than it's not unreasonable to investigate Hebrew.

They usually look at other areas of the Scripture that are in English(or their native tongue) for the same terms so that they can let Scripture testify to what Scripture means.

And then, for a deeper understanding of what the English has already testified of itself to say, you then go to the Greek/Hebrew.
Well, from what has been posted, there certainly seems to be an issue of accurate definitions/tranlation of these terms. If this is the case, and if you're christian, than it's worth looking into imo.

Unless a person is reading ALL of Scripture in Greek/Hebrew, it makes for very poor theology and easy confusion and contradiction of the word to take the Greek/Hebrew and place it in the context of the English(or native tongue).

That's why Biblical word studies, when used as they are intended, will enhance the understanding of the native tongue. It will not attempt to prove the English(native tongue) incorrect.
If αρσενοκοιται is to be appropriately translated as homosexual, than address it. That's the point of the OP. I don't think the purpose of this thread is to discuss why folk should not be investigating correct or incorrect translations.
 
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brightmorningstar

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The problem is Watersmoon110, what you dont see as clear cut we do, the question to you would be look at Genesis 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, 1 Cor 6-7 and Eph 5 and tell us what differnce it would make when God created man and woman to be together and celibacy as the alternative.
It all very well disputing all the passages that condemn same sex unions by claiming they are the correct translation, you have no countenace of same sex unions. Because of sexual immorality (1 Cor 7) each man should have his own wife...
Your whole thinking and reasoning is based on trying to justify same sex unions and is not open at all to the truth.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Braunwyn,
If αρσενοκοιται is to be appropriately translated as homosexual,
It has been, open up some of the Bibles of different translations and see... you guys are in denial of reality. Ae you qualified in Greek or ancient Greek enough to be able to say translations are wrong?
 
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Zaac

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BigBadWlf,

Let me also add something else. God's word is simple. It is nowhere near as complicated as people make it.

When we have to word study something to death in order to make the English say what we think it should say, we have gone down the wrong rabbit trail.

When we have to author that much confusion in order to make a single word say or in this case, not say something, then the accompanying confusion should be proof that what is concluded is not of God.

If we simply accept what the words say AS IS, everything is simplified. Some of it is gonna make us mad. Some of it will frustrate us. And some of it will make us wonder how God could ever have meant what He says.

But unless we want to author confusion and risk somebdoy stumbling over something we have contrived, the Christian teacher HAS TO STAND FIRMLY on what God's word says AS IS.
 
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BigBadWlf

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To BIgBAdwlf,
Your comments are riduculous as if you look on the threads, particularly one of my posts of today on the non-religious arguments thread you will see not only the reasoning and debate for the correct translation but arguments from both sides.
Zaac is clealry right, you are not open to debate.

Aaaaannnnnddd......We are all still waiting for anyone to present evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual.
 
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