Transcendence

[FarBeyond]

At what point did human transcend the animal kingdom? When did we finally become awake and understand that there is more than just survival?

 

[The Lady Kate]

At what point did human transcend the animal kingdom?

Never... Humans still are members of the animal kingdom.

When did we finally become awake and understand that there is more than just survival?

IOW... when did we become sentient? Nobody's got an exact date on that one.

 

[FarBeyond]

Never... Humans still are members of the animal kingdom.



IOW... when did we become sentient? Nobody's got an exact date on that one.

We never biologically transcended the animal kingdom. I mean in a more philosophical or metaphysical sense. Did you mean to say sapience instead of sentience?

 

[Hydra009]

At what point did human transcend the animal kingdom? When did we finally become awake and understand that there is more than just survival?

Well, generally, I don't consider myself a fungus, plant or protist, I'm eukaryotic, heterotrophic, I don't have cell walls and I'm capable of locomotion, I respond to my environment, and I feed by consuming other organisms, so I consider myself an metazoan.

We never biologically transcended the animal kingdom. I mean in a more philosophical or metaphysical sense.

Ah, okay. You mean self-awareness? Probably when our lineage developed complex enough brains to be able to form thoughts to that affect.

 

[FarBeyond]

We never biologically transcended the animal kingdom. I mean in a more philosophical or metaphysical sense. Did you mean to say sapience instead of sentience?

Good for you.

 

[Abongil]

Never... Humans still are members of the animal kingdom.



IOW... when did we become sentient? Nobody's got an exact date on that one.

All thinking animals are sentient. You mean when did we attain sapience I believe..

 

[FarBeyond]

Ah, okay. You mean self-awareness? Probably when our lineage developed complex enough brains to be able to form thoughts to that affect.

Any idea of when and where that took place?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Oops... sapience.

 

[Hydra009]

Any idea of when and where that took place?

Nope. You'd have to go into the evolutionary history of humans and other mammals and look at where the genetic differences are regarding the evolution of our respective brains.

Basically, stuff like this and this.

Additionally, higher-brain functions don't seem to be the sole domain of humans - other mammals show varying degrees of self-awareness as well. linky

 

[Dale]

One possible answer . . .

The Neanderthals buried their dead. I believe they are the first breed known to do so. Burying the dead is certainly something animals don't do.

 

[Dale]

Hydra006:
" I don't consider myself a fungus, plant or protist, I'm eukaryotic, heterotrophic, I don't have cell walls and I'm capable of locomotion, I respond to my environment, and I feed by consuming other organisms, so I consider myself an metazoan."

You're the first person I've met who talks this way!

 

[TheDreadedAtheist]

One possible answer . . .

The Neanderthals buried their dead. I believe they are the first breed known to do so. Burying the dead is certainly something animals don't do.

The actions of Neanderthals are irrelevant to this discussion, as Neanderthals are not part of our lineage.

 

[Contracelsus]

I am not a zoologist, but I am willing to bet that "self awareness" is a sliding scale. I bet chimpanzees and bonobos are self-aware. My dogs less so, animals without a mammalian brain like reptiles probably not at all.

And, besides, how do you KNOW what an animal is "aware" of? Can anyone prove to me that Fleshy the Wonderdog isn't sitting on my couch licking the area where his testicles used to be and NOT doing calculus in his head?

 

[yasic]

I dont think there is any one moment when this happens, just like there isn't 1 specific moment when a human baby becomes aware that other people have their unique own thoughts.

 

[[serious]]

Hydra006:
" I don't consider myself a fungus, plant or protist, I'm eukaryotic, heterotrophic, I don't have cell walls and I'm capable of locomotion, I respond to my environment, and I feed by consuming other organisms, so I consider myself an metazoan."

You're the first person I've met who talks this way!

You should hang out with more scientists then.

Some of the jokes scientists crack can really make you groan if you get them. It's like the one about secondary fitness, "I'd gladly give my life to save two of my children or 4 of my nephews" I forget who said it though.

 

[TheDreadedAtheist]

I am not a zoologist, but I am willing to bet that "self awareness" is a sliding scale. I bet chimpanzees and bonobos are self-aware. My dogs less so, animals without a mammalian brain like reptiles probably not at all.

And, besides, how do you KNOW what an animal is "aware" of? Can anyone prove to me that Fleshy the Wonderdog isn't sitting on my couch licking the area where his testicles used to be and NOT doing calculus in his head?

First I would like to point out that nothing is proven in science. Hopefully you can just understand this, so I don't have to explain it again (I am not trying to insult you with this statement).
Second, we can show that the brains of certain organisms are incapable of certain types of thought.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Second, we can show that the brains of certain organisms are incapable of certain types of thought.

this is a curious claim.

I.what are the current types of thoughts? how do i find a list of them?

II.how do i know what a thought in the brain of a creature looks like? how do i observe or measure thoughts?

so given a system (which i don't actually believe exists) to observe thought (II) how do i align these thoughts with the type classification derived from I (which likewise i doubt exist)

least you think this nitpicky, it is the fundamental problem of linking neurophysiology to philosophy, the so-called inside-out vs outside-in problem That is how to align my thoughts with the PET scan on the screen (for a specific example)

 

[Contracelsus]

First I would like to point out that nothing is proven in science. Hopefully you can just understand this, so I don't have to explain it again (I am not trying to insult you with this statement).

No insult taken. I'm an R&D chemistso I know all about the proven vs unproven and alpha levels for statistics!

Second, we can show that the brains of certain organisms are incapable of certain types of thought.

Actually my point was more along the lines of how aware is aware? What does it mean to be "self aware"? I've always thought that higher order brain functions may be on a sliding scale and I am willing to bet that higher primates such as chimps and bonobos and gorillas are aware of themselves, maybe not in a way we would recognized.

I am also aware that chickens probably are not.

I forget who wrote it, but I remember hearing about a thought experiment article someone once wrote about what it is like to be a bat. Sort of an empiricism without any sort of grounding. We know what we know from the way we know things, but how do we know how other animals (presumably those with higher mammalian brains) know things?

(I don't think I used enough "knows" in that sentence).

It's the philosophy part I like here. I realize we can do PET scans and fMRI's to figure out what part of the brain is lighting up when an animal thinks or is exposed to stimuli, but in reality I think this is an "epistemologically dodgy area" when we start talking about real intellectual differences between chimps and humans.

I also fear those people who try to claim humans in whatever way are some sort of quantum leap away from animals. I always wonder why they think that.

So, indeed, I think it is an interesting area and philosophically as well as scientifically.

And, besides, when I look in my puppy's unblinking eyes I am desperately hoping something of interest is going on inside his tiny tiny head other than "Hey, hey, gimme some of that sammidge...now. Hey, hey, some food here...now....hey hey hey hey."

 

[Contracelsus]

least you think this nitpicky, it is the fundamental problem of linking neurophysiology to philosophy, the so-called inside-out vs outside-in problem That is how to align my thoughts with the PET scan on the screen (for a specific example)

I've got a good friend who teaches philosophy. This is almost exactly the argument we have had many many times. He uses it to justify the non-physical nature of thought (I don't agree with him), but it is indeed a really really neat area of discussion.

 

[TheDreadedAtheist]

Fair enough.