Toxic masculinity.

[MehGuy]

A dual thread for the toxic femininity thread.

What is toxic masculinity to you?
How much of toxic masculine behaviors do you think can be changed? Nature/nurture.
To what extent do women engage in "toxic masculine" behaviors?
To what extent are women attracted to men who exhibit toxic masculine behaviors?
What about the combination of toxic masculine and toxic feminine behaviors?
Or do you think it's all crap? Lol. Why?

Feel free to go as far as you want. When it comes to talks about psychology and the like, honest discussion probably entails very uncomfortable discussion.

On the opposite side. Do you think some "toxic" masculine traits are actually good? Get an unfair bad reputation?

 

[thecolorsblend]

"Toxic masculinity" is what feminists who are unacceptable for marriage call typical male behavior.

 

[Chesterton]

Define "toxic masculinity" please? Some of us older folks don't follow the latest trends in idiotic word combinations.

 

[MehGuy]

Define "toxic masculinity" please? Some of us older folks don't follow the latest trends in idiotic word combinations.

Behaviors from men that are toxic to themselves and others.

Such as men more prone to be serial killers, wind up in prison, rape.. etc..

How minor male traits such as risk taking behavior can lead to toxic behaviors. Honestly it's often best to start down to up.

For a more specific definition I think that is up for debate.

Personally I take a more biological approach to it.

 

[BubbaJack]

Men fall on all areas of the spectrum. While you have bad men, very bad men, you also have men who have selflessly given much to civilization. Women seem to occupy the mean, not too many bad ones, not too many great ones. As feminist Camile Paglia put it, "There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper."

 

[MehGuy]

Men fall on all areas of the spectrum. While you have bad men, very bad men, you also have men who have selflessly given much to civilization.

Of course. This thread is more about the latter men, though. I certainly do not think men as a whole are toxic.

Women seem to occupy the mean, not too many bad ones, not too many great ones. As feminist Camile Paglia put it, "There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper."

Very thought provoking words. I do think toxic masculinity often makes the world go round. Often times our greatest technological advancements come from war time. One could argue that the race to the moon was partly between American and Russian men having an over glorified length contest, lol. Camille Paglia is one of the few feminist thinkers I admire.

 

[BubbaJack]

One thing that we can all agree on, is that "toxic" men are often quite popular.

 

[MehGuy]

One thing that we can all agree on, is that "toxic" men are often quite popular.

Yes. Many of them certainly make the history books.

Many with admirers, male and female.

Do you think some women who criticize toxic males yet often dates them send mixed messages to men? Like one of my points say, do you think the glorification of toxic masculinity from some people also rests on females?

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

A dual thread for the toxic femininity thread.

What is toxic masculinity to you?
How much of toxic masculine behaviors do you think can be changed? Nature/nurture.
To what extent do women engage in "toxic masculine" behaviors?
To what extent are women attracted to men who exhibit toxic masculine behaviors?
What about the combination of toxic masculine and toxic feminine behaviors?
Or do you think it's all crap? Lol. Why?

Feel free to go as far as you want. When it comes to talks about psychology and the like, honest discussion probably entails very uncomfortable discussion.

On the opposite side. Do you think some "toxic" masculine traits are actually good? Get an unfair bad reputation?

Please describe masculine characteristics which are toxic.

Be a masculine man or a wimp.
These are all your options.

 

[MehGuy]

Please describe masculine characteristics which are toxic.

Well I think toxic masculine traits and toxic feminine traits share that they harm people (physically, emotionally.)

How one arrives to that I think is different between the genders. Why men are more prone to murder and other heinous acts I believe stem from their more risk taking psychology.

I have my own evolutionary theories behind that. Mainly that men are simply more disposable than women when it comes to reproduction. So there is less incentive for them to be more risk aversive, and they have more flexibility to engage in extreme behaviors.

Be a masculine man or a wimp.
These are all your options.

Be masculine, or look less appealing to females.

Really, at that point it's beyond just the peer pressure of other men..

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

Well I think toxic masculine traits and toxic feminine traits share that they harm people (physically, emotionally.)

How one arrives to that I think is different between the genders. Why men are more prone to murder and other heinous acts I believe stem from their more risk taking psychology.

I have my own evolutionary theories behind that. Mainly that men are simply more disposable than women when it comes to reproduction. So there is less incentive for them to be more risk aversive, and they have more flexibility to engage in extreme behaviors.



Be masculine, or look less appealing to females.

Really, at that point it's beyond just the peer pressure of other men..

There is no such thing as "toxic" masculinity.

What you described are sociopathic behaviors.

"Toxic masculinity" is a lie articulated by angry aging spinster feminists. Don't follow them and their lies.

Do you want to know what are the true masculine traits?

What Is a Real Man: 12 Essential Characteristics Of Masculine Men

 

[MehGuy]

There is no such thing as "toxic" masculinity.

What you described are sociopathic behaviors.

I don't see so. Especially when many of these behaviors can involve quite a bit of empathy.

"Toxic masculinity" is a lie articulated by angry aging spinster feminists. Don't follow them and their lies.

I think a lot of toxic masculine narrative from feminists is garbage, although I don't think the concept itself is without merit.

Although if you have issue with attaching the term "masculine" I have my sympathizes. Women can certainly engage in these behaviors too, and on that note it might be disingenuous to call them masculine behaviors. The only reason I do, is because I believe statistical these traits weigh heavily more on men. And people who care about trends might find use for the term. I do think such terms can help further discussion and viewpoints. I think people interpret and use language different, and for some using such terms make sense and for others it won't. Personally those who don't want to use the term, are cool with me and those who want to use the term (within good reason) are cool with me too.

And don't worry, I'm not a feminist. I think for myself, I certainly don't follow them.

 

[Paidiske]

So here's a question...

A fair bit of the stuff I read about masculinity and so forth (as exemplified in the article Captain Jack linked, although there was other valuable stuff in there too) emphasises physicality; physical strength, physical activity, to some extent good looks.

And it seems to me that this is very much a young man's game; it doesn't take into account illness, aging, and so forth. One of the things I've found in pastoral care is as men age or face health crises, one of the things that is an issue for them is their sense of lost masculinity. And I wonder if there's something wrong with a narrative of masculinity which sets them up to feel less of a man, if, for example, they've lost a leg? Or as they encounter the inevitable limitations of aging?

 

[MehGuy]

So here's a question...

A fair bit of the stuff I read about masculinity and so forth (as exemplified in the article Captain Jack linked, although there was other valuable stuff in there too) emphasises physicality; physical strength, physical activity, to some extent good looks.

And it seems to me that this is very much a young man's game; it doesn't take into account illness, aging, and so forth. One of the things I've found in pastoral care is as men age or face health crises, one of the things that is an issue for them is their sense of lost masculinity. And I wonder if there's something wrong with a narrative of masculinity which sets them up to feel less of a man, if, for example, they've lost a leg? Or as they encounter the inevitable limitations of aging?

The harshness of biology. A lot of masculinity has to do with being appealing to females. The weaker you are, the less appealing you will be with many of them.

Although I think the same sentiment exists for women when it comes to things like youthfulness (child-bearing age).

Not sure how you can change that. Our psychology (which includes notions of masculinity and femininity) will always be heavily geared to the narrative of whether or not we're good mates to the opposite sex.

 

[Paidiske]

I'd hope we could get past our masculine or feminine value being tied up in whether or not someone else wants to shag us... that's a pretty limited view of human worth.

 

[BubbaJack]

I'd hope we could get past our masculine or feminine value being tied up in whether or not someone else wants to shag us... that's a pretty limited view of human worth.

I don't think we can, because its tied up with our biology.

 

[MehGuy]

I'd hope we could get past our masculine or feminine value being tied up in whether or not someone else wants to shag us... that's a pretty limited view of human worth.

But it's the reason we're here.

Why else for being masculine and feminine? Sexual attraction/viability will always be an extremely important thing.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not really into biological determinism. I tend to think most of our behaviour is, if not totally free, certainly able to be shaped. (I did enough genetics - majored in it in my science degree - not to be totally talking out of my hat there. It's an informed view).

And while the sex drive is definitely strong for most of us, I'd reject the idea that sex is "why we're here." But then we're getting into theologically loaded views of the human person, which might be interesting but is kind of off topic here.

 

[MehGuy]

I'm not really into biological determinism. I tend to think most of our behaviour is, if not totally free, certainly able to be shaped. (I did enough genetics - majored in it in my science degree - not to be totally talking out of my hat there. It's an informed view).

I don't think everything is 100% rigid. Although when it comes to the possibility of our behaviors and thoughts, I don't see how we can extend beyond our hardware (brain.)

Since we are here to pass on our genes (or we die off) I don't see how behavior to appeal to the opposite sex won't fill our thoughts/behaviors.

Beyond that, I see little biological incentive for unique sex behaviors. The idea of masculinity and femininity might as well not exist at all. I don't see how they are not plastic to our biology and reproduction.

And while the sex drive is definitely strong for most of us, I'd reject the idea that sex is "why we're here." But then we're getting into theologically loaded views of the human person, which might be interesting but is kind of off topic here.

Yeah, an atheist and a theist might have a disagreement there. Lol.

 

[BubbaJack]

I'm not really into biological determinism. I tend to think most of our behaviour is, if not totally free, certainly able to be shaped. (I did enough genetics - majored in it in my science degree - not to be totally talking out of my hat there. It's an informed view).

And while the sex drive is definitely strong for most of us, I'd reject the idea that sex is "why we're here." But then we're getting into theologically loaded views of the human person, which might be interesting but is kind of off topic here.

So I guess you'd think Dawkin's gene-centric view is way off.