Tounges

Travelers.Soul · Sep 7, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Wow. Church has apparently changed a lot in the past couple of decades. I guess there's no need for a crying room in those places...

No, no need for a crying room.

TheGirlOnFire said:
I don't think it makes you a better Christian

Me either...

Gnarwhal · Sep 7, 2015

dreaminofireland said:
I have family that are charismatic and their speaking in tongues runs something like this..."I tie my bow tie I untie my bow tie." I was told growing up, by these family members, that as a Christian you need to be able to speak in tongues and that is how you do it.

That's deeply disturbing, I feel like that's warping Christianity into a type of tribal shamanism.

TheGirlOnFire · Sep 7, 2015

dreaminofireland said:
No, no need for a crying room.

Me either...

What is a crying room ?

Cearbhall · Sep 7, 2015

TheGirlOnFire said:
What is a crying room ?

Establishments where quiet is expected will often have crying rooms for families with children who are too young to control themselves. The rooms are often fitted with technology that allows the older family members to watch and listen to the service or performance.

TheGirlOnFire · Sep 7, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Establishments where quiet is expected will often have crying rooms for families with children who are too young to control themselves.

Ah a family room, they have those hear but I suspect it's because they play the music so loud people don't want to damage their children ears lol

Travelers.Soul · Sep 7, 2015

Darth Bagel said:
That's deeply disturbing, I feel like that's warping Christianity into a type of tribal shamanism.

It is disturbing and they warped the Gospel and Christianity into a prosperity gospel, which is grotesque. On one hand it is basically religious syncretism and on the other religious snobbery, when it came to tongues. In my family members' churches if you could speak in tongues you were better than those who could not. They also bought into the "name it and claim it" mentality. If you were poor, sick, whatever it was your fault because God was willing to give you anything you ask if you just claimed it in Jesus name.

Tom Mix · Sep 7, 2015

Why do you need to speak in a different language if everybody in the room you are in speaks the same language?

The people speaking in different tongues in the Bible are doing so because there are people in the group/crowd that speak other languages and did not understand what was being said so the Holy Spirit allowed them to speak in other languages so everybody could understand. They did not click their tongues and speak in funny sounds but were speaking languages that others understood. I do not believe they had interrupters because the people who they were talking to understood.

Messy · Sep 7, 2015

TheGirlOnFire said:
Ah a family room, they have those hear but I suspect it's because they play the music so loud people don't want to damage their children ears lol

My kid Always sat in the front row when he was a few months old, with extremely loud music and two earplugs in hahahahahahaha. All the other kids went to the kids room but he liked it and sat completely calm the whole service in his chair, paying attention. Once we had a sermon about tithing. If you speak about that in Holland everyone gets dead serious and quiet. Then all of a sudden he bursted out laughing and couldn't stop. That was so funny.

Messy · Sep 7, 2015

Tom Mix said:
Why do you need to speak in a different language if everybody in the room you are in speaks the same language?

The people speaking in different tongues in the Bible are doing so because there are people in the group/crowd that speak other languages and did not understand what was being said so the Holy Spirit allowed them to speak in other languages so everybody could understand. They did not click their tongues and speak in funny sounds but were speaking languages that others understood. I do not believe they had interrupters because the people who they were talking to understood.

Yes but it's also to pray, because you don't know what to pray.

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

SnowyMacie · Sep 7, 2015

dreaminofireland said:
Nor do I believe the chaos that goes on in many churches, while people are speaking in tongues, is what Paul was referring to when he spoke of "earnestly desiring spiritual gifts". 1 Corinthians 14 always comes to mind when I am in a church that breaks out in absolute chaos and disorderly conduct (running in the aisles, rolling on the ground, bumble prayers, etc.) It also interests me how often this portion of Scripture is ignored in the charismatic churches I have been in. "If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God." (1 Cor 14:27-28) I have never been a church service where tongues were used and it was interpreted. Perhaps that is only my experience however. I tend to believe that if this gift still exists it is very rare.

This reminds me of when I went to the Charasmatic "fundie school", and they read the love passage from 1 Corinthians 13, but if I remember correctly, they started in chapter 12 at verse 27 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way." and went straight to 13:4, skipping over "
"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

RileyG · Sep 7, 2015

TheGirlOnFire said:
Do you pray in tounges ?

I don't never have, maybe it's the Catholic in me... though am not sure catholics can I've never seen it... it's all about quiet thoughtful praying lol

Catholic.

No.

ViaCrucis · Sep 7, 2015

Cearbhall said:
What exactly are you referring to? I thought glossolalia was supposedly involuntary.

In some quarters of the Pentecostal and Charismatic field that is taught.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church (the Foursquare Church) and something perhaps noticeably different than it and what I saw in some other Pentecostal circles was to avoid extravagance and fanaticism. Glossolalia, or speaking in tongues, was regarded as something that was supposed to happen in a controlled environment. Spontaneous or sporadic tongues-speaking was frowned upon, and it was supposed to be accompanied by an interpretation when it did happen.

In fact, in the 10 years I was part of that church I can probably count the number of times I heard people speak in tongues on my hands.

So when talking about even the modern practice of glossolalia its practice can be quite varied depending on the views of the group in question.

Of course having gone from Pentecostal to Lutheran a great deal of my understanding of what biblical glossolalia entailed is significantly different.

I'd regard most modern forms of glossolalia to, in effect, be ecstatic utterances which are not, at a psychological and behavioral level much different than that is seen in many cultures and spiritual traditions the world over, especially in various forms of shamanism.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Sep 7, 2015

Goodbook said:
if you ask God for this gift He will give it to you.

St. Paul says that not all gifts are given to everyone, but all have gifts as given by the same Holy Spirit. Not all will speak in tongues, not all will prophesy, etc. The entire point of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is about the unity of the Body of Christ in the Spirit even with its diversity of gifts and callings; and that ultimately nothing is more important than love.

A chief problem of the Corinthian church was how factional it was, some saying "I'm of Paul" others "I'm of Cephas (Peter)" and others saying "I'm of Christ", and then they were so disorganized and so divided that some were getting drunk at Communion before everyone had even arrived, and still there were issues with some seemingly thinking that certain gifts were more special than others and that gave them a spiritual leg up on everyone else. Which is why St. Paul spends considerable time emphasizing the unity of the Body, the central importance of charity (love, agape), and the necessity of order in worship.

There are many, many different gifts all from the same Holy Spirit. The Apostle writes, "Do all speak in tongues? Do all prophesy?" and, of course, the answer is no. Glossolalia, or tongues, was not a very special gift, it was just one gift among many, no better than any other, Romans 12:3-8,

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us: prophecy, in proportion to faith; ministry, in ministering; the teacher, in teaching; the exhorter, in exhortation; the giver, in generosity; the leader, in diligence; the compassionate, in cheerfulness."

Generosity, leadership, teaching, and compassion are all likewise spiritual gifts (charismata) and are from the same Spirit and are for the good and unity of the Body.

There tends to be an obsession with "showy" gifts like glossolalia, but the Spirit may have other gifts, gifts better suited for us. The patience by which to endure trouble and trials, the humility to avoid arrogance and pride. Generosity so that those who are lacking may have what they need. Encouragement to build up those who are down or are struggling.

The little old lady who always seems to manage a smile when she greets people at the church door? Her cheerfulness is no less a gift from the Holy Spirit which builds up the Body of Christ and serves the Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Travelers.Soul · Sep 7, 2015

TX_Matt said:
This reminds me of when I went to the Charasmatic "fundie school", and they read the love passage from 1 Corinthians 13, but if I remember correctly, they started in chapter 12 at verse 27 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way." and went straight to 13:4, skipping over "
"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

That's a shame, things like that shouldn't happen but they do. If we say we are followers of the Word and of Christ than we shouldn't just teach the Scripture we like but all of it.

Sketcher · Sep 7, 2015

High Fidelity · Sep 7, 2015

Darth Bagel said:
No, I don't because I don't believe that what people call "tongues" today is anywhere remotely related to what was described in the scriptures.

That's my position as well. I don't know if I'd consider myself entirely cessationist, but as far as tongues are concerned, absolutely. I believe it's something that ceased with the Apostolic era.

If someone woke up with the ability to minister and spread the gospel in perfectly spoken x, y or z, then sure, I'll call that tongues.

I think what is considered tongues today is more so something that happens as a means of people being able to quantify their faith or at least have 'something to show for it', even if it's just to themselves.

Gnarwhal · Sep 7, 2015

Patrick Bateman said:
I believe it's something that ceased with the Apostolic era.

Generally speaking, that's cessationism. That being said, I agree with all of your sentiments. Tongues was a device conceived by God and administered through the Holy Spirit so that the gospel could break through cultural and linguistic barriers in the first century. Today, we are not met with those same obstacles. The entirety of the bible has been translated into roughly 469 languages, that takes care of most—if not all—people groups on Earth. So tongues, as it's understood in the context of scripture, is entirely unnecessary. However, if someone were placed in a particular situation where the gospel had not been heard by a group with an obscure language or dialect, I would imagine that God might give the person the ability to speak to them in their own language to that end.

What's often called tongues in todays Charismatic and Pentecostal circles is not the tongues of the scriptures. It's simply ecstatic utterances, likely ginned up from the emotional and psychological euphoria that comes from the worship sessions that are commonplace in those groups.

The reason I take issue with that practice, besides the fact that it's unscriptural, is that it removes the sacredness from the act of worship, and often leads people to places of heterodoxy. I've personally been involved in worship where someone spoke in tongues, claimed to also possess a translation for it, and then proceeded to deliver a wholly disturbing message to me (he told me I should spend more time with my mom because she was going to die soon - this was seven years ago, she's healthy as a horse, and I spent/spend plenty of time with her as it is, my family is very close).

On another occasion, I watched a guy I've known for a while pace back and forth mumbling gibberish, and then when things died down he claimed to have a word for someone. He spoke through the microphone to a man and basically played 20 Questions with the guy, but missed the mark every time.

It's a sideshow, a carnival act that does nothing but detract from proper Christian worship.

Freakconformist · Sep 7, 2015

I think speaking in tongues can help some people express emotions that they can't describe or speak of in prayer. Anxiety, the feeling of fear and worry for no apparent reason, is a good emotion to bring to God in tongues. I'm constantly feeling guilty or anxious for no reason other than "it's Monday" all the time. I don't pray in tongues, though, I just say "God, I don't know what I'm so stressed out about. If there's something I need to do let me know, otherwise take this feeling away."
That said, this approach is best used privately, especially as it involves your personal emotions.

Unfortunately, I've been to a lot of churches where people use "tongues" to garner attention or to express a personal opinion while claiming that it's a "Word from God". I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the need to abolish Obama-care anywhere in the Bible. :\ At which point you get to use another, less obvious and less popular, Gift: discernment. If nobody steps up with an interpretation, then it's not a "Word from God". If people are interpreting their own tongues, then it definitely isn't a "Word from God". If you can't hold that "Word from God" up to the light of the Bible and have everything line up, then it probably isn't a "Word from God".

True, miraculous tongues should be clear and powerful. When God is moving, you'll know it, because at that point He isn't trying to be subtle.

Rhamiel · Sep 7, 2015

we used to have a kind of active subforum about the Charismatic Catholic Renewal
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/charismatic-catholic-renewal.906/

I have only done a little with this group in real life, and read a little about them online

speaking in tongues is not part of my spiritual experience
I tend to be a bit more skeptical about that.... but I try not to be dismissive

dreaminofireland said:
On one hand it is basically religious syncretism

I was thinking about making a thread about the topic of religious syncretism
would you be interested in a more indepth talk on this?

Darth Bagel said:
Generally speaking, that's cessationism. That being said, I agree with all of your sentiments.

hmmm, I only heard the term Cessationism used for the total stop of miracles
not just the idea that the time for Tongues has now passed?

Gnarwhal · Sep 7, 2015

Rhamiel said:
hmmm, I only heard the term Cessationism used for the total stop of miracles
not just the idea that the time for Tongues has now passed?

It is the umbrella term. Cessationism usually makes the case that I made above, re:tongues. That it's unnecessary today because the language barrier has been defeated as far as spreading the gospel goes.

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