Tough on crime.....

[StormyOne]

That's a phrase often used by conservatives and has been a litmus test for those running for office..."are they tough on crime?"

Interesting article for consideration.....

The number of Americans in prison has risen eight-fold since 1970, with little impact on crime but at great cost to taxpayers and society, researchers said in a report calling for a major justice-system overhaul.

The report released on Monday cites statistics and examples ranging from former vice-presidential aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby to a Florida woman's two-year sentence for throwing a cup of coffee to make its case for reducing the U.S. prison population.
It recommends shorter sentences and parole terms, alternative punishments, more help for released inmates and decriminalizing recreational drugs as steps that would cut the prison population in half, save $20 billion a year and ease social inequality without endangering the public.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071119/ts_nm/usa_prisons_dc


it appears putting people in prison is costly and doesn't seem to be reducing crime...... thoughts?

 

[LightWorker1967]

That's a phrase often used by conservatives and has been a litmus test for those running for office..."are they tough on crime?"

Interesting article for consideration.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071119/ts_nm/usa_prisons_dc


it appears putting people in prison is costly and doesn't seem to be reducing crime...... thoughts?

Stormy, this is a great example of how excessively reductionist thinking vs. systemic thinking creates problems. If you only address the what and not the why – trouble. And then if you truncate the learning cycle for a young person, and at the same time put them in an environment filled with hostility, fear, negativity, and violence – it's fairly obvious why that can be so harmful.

A related conversation is how people relate to their children – "spare the rod, spoil the child." I often hear people talk about setting boundaries for children – and then enforcing them with consistency. I was around many families in my church that used violence to control their children (corporal punishment).

Violence toward a child injures them—more than just physically.

I've discovered with my daughter that when we are in deep relationship with each other, setting boundaries is not only counterproductive, but erodes relationship – it threatens intimacy.

Does that mean I never set boundaries? No, but it does mean that we had a failure in relationship (agreements) when I have to. I once heard a person say that a true marriage agreement was impossible to break – that people break agreements because they didn't have true agreements in the first place—agreements based in fear instead of love. I've found great wisdom in this idea.

But here's where the rubber meets the road – if we don't do our own healing work for ourselves, we can't come into truly intimate relationships – with anybody. That means total forgiveness of self – which is immensely more difficult to do than forgiveness of others. How do we come into relationship with other people when we are out of relationship with ourselves?

Another way to say this related to the issue of this thread is that we punish ourselves in the same way we punish other people. It takes many forms, but it is also harmful.

Now translate this idea narrowly to crime and you see why locking people up is seems easier—at first.

 

[StormyOne]

good points LW, and the reality is that God saves us via relationship not by anything we "do" for him......

 

[NightEternal]

I'm probably going to take some hits for this, but I have to say that 'tough on crime' is one of the main things I look for in a candidate. I am quite conservative politically actually.

I have not hidden the fact that I am pro-capital punishment on this forum. I also support the death penalty when necessary. Canada is notorious for coddling its criminals and I, for one, am sick of it. We have too many individuals who are still sucking the tax payers dry living on our penal system who, by all rights and by any standard of sane justice and common decency, should have been put to death long ago.

Some names that come to mind:

Clifford Olson (Canadian child rapist/serial killer) 11 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olsen

Paul Bernardo (Canadian rapist/torturer/murderer) 3 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo



Charles Ng (Chinese serial killer/torturer who fled to Canada for refuge) 25 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ng



No appeals. No deals. No nonsense. Take them to a private cell, make them get on thier knees and blow thier brains out with a well-placed bullet to the back of the head. And, quite frankly, I think their scumbag lawyers should be kneeling right beside them and get the same thing.

That is how the Russian police dealt with Andrei Chikatilo, the worst serial killer on record (sadistically raped, murdered, mutilated and cannibalized 53 victims, mostly children) and they should be applauded for it.



Andrei was convicted on all counts and sentenced to death. In 1994 he was led into a bare concrete room with a drain in the center of the floor. Instructed to stare at the wall and not turn, he was shot in the back of the head, Russian-style, and executed.

http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/chikatilo.html

I have voted to bring the death penalty to Canada in every election and poll that I possibly can. I have lobbied Ottawa, written letters to the Prime Minister/Mayor/Premier and written letters to the newspapers.

And I don't care if it is not a deterrent. That is not the point nor the purpose. It is the principal of the matter.

It is justice.

Literally translated, the commandment says thou shalt do no murder. It does not prohibit killing by the state. Scripture tells us that ruling authourities do not bear the sword in vain. Sometimes killing is necessary and I think God is dishonored when those who enforce our laws protect these monsters from death and victimize thier victims in court by endless appeals.

 

[StormyOne]

it is not deterring crime, it is not working.... I understand your view, I just don't share it.....

 

[StormyOne]

NE, let me also say you have used extreme examples to support your view.... the article I referenced indicated that many of those who are incarcerated are not hardened criminals with violent tendencies.....

 

[NightEternal]

Still, though, I am fed-up with wet-noodle, limp-wristed liberal policies and approaches to the crime problem across the board, extreme cases or not. Let the sentence fit the crime, that's all I ask.

They don't need Dr. Phil or Oprah. They need consequences that are enforced.

I like the Islamic system. Rapists are castrated, thieves have a hand cut off, drug-dealers, pimps, child molesters and pornographers are put to death, etc.

Works for me!

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I am all for being tough on crime, unfortunately I don't think prison is necessarily being tough. It treats the violator as if he/she is always a threat to citizens and that is not the case. Non violent crimes could and should be treated differently then being in prison where we spend 40-60 thousand dollars a year per person.

A recent example is some of the drunk driving violations for such people as Paris Hilton I would prefer to see someone like that spend the time working on liter patrols for that amount of time, in her case with full media access to take pictures and a good Sargent style foremen to keep the people working. We could clean out a lot of the drug users from prisons and put them into some type of work camps etc.

Another good example is Scooter Libby who was fined over a hundred thousand dollars but was also sentenced to prison if Bush had not commuted that part of the sentence. Was he really a threat to anybody that he should have been sentenced to prison. We need to rethink how we punish people, that is hard because the Justice system is backed up and also because we don't want the government competing with the private sector by using prisoners as workers so there is a limit to the work camps that could be constructed.

Personally I agree with Bill O'Rielly about getting rid of the death penalty and returning to Life at hard labor. prison plus a useful work life to benefit the society they have hurt. I actually think that is even more of a deterrent then the death penalty and far cheaper since the appeals process in death penalty cases makes it more expensive then life in prison

 

[NightEternal]

We could clean out a lot of the drug users from prisons and put them into some type of work camps etc.

Personally I agree with Bill O'Rielly about getting rid of the death penalty and returning to Life at hard labor. prison plus a useful work life to benefit the society they have hurt. I actually think that is even more of a deterrent then the death penalty and far cheaper since the appeals process in death penalty cases makes it more expensive then life in prison

I could go for this. It sure beats giving them an air-conditioned cell with steak dinners and access to the internet and color T.V.! When serial killers are allowed to have a MySpace page, things have gotten completely retarded!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=266484271

This is ludicrous! Why is this dirtbag even being given computer access? Someone should be held acountable for this travesty!

I think in extreme cases such as the ones I cited above, they should be sentenced to death by hard labor. Work them to death, that's a good way to go.

Maybe a bullet is too easy for them.

 

[NightEternal]

But of course, in our sick, twisted culture today, we would rather glorify these beasts instead of reviling them like any normal society would.

Serial killer calendars and trading cards. I'm not kidding.

http://serialkillercalendar.com/

What sort of person would have Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Richard Ramirez or Ed Gein on thier kitchen wall as they pencil in thier monthly appointments?

Those who designed this webpage should be charged and imprisoned. Plain and simple.

 

[AndrewK788]

Still, though, I am fed-up with wet-noodle, limp-wristed liberal policies and approaches to the crime problem across the board, extreme cases or not. Let the sentence fit the crime, that's all I ask.

They don't need Dr. Phil or Oprah. They need consequences that are enforced.

I like the Islamic system. Rapists are castrated, thieves have a hand cut off, drug-dealers, pimps, child molesters and pornographers are put to death, etc.

Works for me!

And there's also no religious freedom whatsoever in these Islamic countries. Another note on an earlier post: the Russians are hardly a group I'd aspire to mold our systems and policies after.

However, I do partially agree with NE. I am sick of serious criminals getting off easy. Personally, I think there are at least twice as many people who deserve to be put on death row and executed than actually are. Not just the worst serial killers.

Perhaps a program needs to be instituted for lesser criminals so they are not sapping tax dollars while sitting in prison. Some sort of program that will get them out of our prison systems faster. But as for child molesters, serial killers and rapists, there shouldn't much mercy. And I also don't think pleading insanity should be a defense. Personally, I think if you're messed up enough to go kill 12 people in cold blood I'm not sure there is even such a thing as mental "sanity." I'm sick of hearing murderers let off easy "because poor little Billy doesn't know the difference between right and wrong because his mother raised him poorly, so it's not his fault that he raped and murdered that woman." Well, I'm sorry for whatever childhood he endured, but that's no excuse.

In further defense of this stance, I will acknowledge that some Christians say that capital punishment is the ultimate statement that we will not forgive. I don't agree with that. It's not about forgiveness but about consequences. I would pray for every death row inmate but that doesn't change my mind that he should probably be put to death.

 

[NightEternal]

I'm sick of hearing murderers let off easy "because poor little Billy doesn't know the difference between right and wrong because his mother raised him poorly, so it's not his fault that he raped and murdered that woman." Well, I'm sorry for whatever childhood he endured, but that's no excuse.

Yup, you got it.

Ted Bundy is a good example of a serial killer that I can respect as far as the attitude and response he had to his death sentence.

Dr. James Dobson had a fascinating interview with Bundy just before he was executed:

http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/intimacy/understanding/a0000082.cfm

Just read Bundy's comment :

JCD: Do you deserve the punishment the state has inflicted upon you?

Ted: That’s a very good question. I don’t want to die; I won’t kid you. I deserve, certainly, the most extreme punishment society has. And I think society deserves to be protected from me and from others like me. That’s for sure. What I hope will come of our discussion is that I think society deserves to be protected from itself. As we have been talking, there are forces at loose in this country, especially this kind of violent pornography, where, on one hand, well-meaning people will condemn the behavior of a Ted Bundy while they’re walking past a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to being Ted Bundys. That’s the irony.

http://www.amazon.com/Fatal-Addiction-Bundys-Interview-Dobson/dp/B0007SO8SA

 

[StormyOne]

Bundy used Dobson.... unfortunately Dobson had his own agenda and did not realize he was being duped.....

 

[NightEternal]

Bundy used Dobson.... unfortunately Dobson had his own agenda and did not realize he was being duped.....

Say what?

This is a new one for me Stormy. Please elaborate...

 

[happywiththelord]

I know several people who are in prison right now. Some of them did what they are accused of and should rightfully be there serving there time. Some of them are not guilty. They are innocent, the justice system failed them and they are sitting in prison doing time they dont deserve, because they didnt do the job. So once you realize there are actually innocent people in jail, i think that should make one reconsider there stance on death penalty, harder time, etc.

There has been many instanced where the person serving time had been shown to be innocent after they have served 10-15-20-30 years in prison! That is horrible! With that being said, if we hold to "kill them all and kill them now", many innocent people will die for absoultely nothing.

I am all for guilty people to do there time!! But as a society, we need to be 100% sure they did what they are being accused of without a shadow of a doubt! Unequiatable evidence! But unfortuantly today, the court system and prosecutors are making grave errors!

So i was once for capital punishement, but what i have learned over the last several years, that has changed my mind.

I am all for what the Bible says, "Vengence is mine saith the Lord". He knows who is guilty and who isnt. I will let him decide how they should be punished. Who knows during that time, they may even give there hearts to Jesus and be saved to.

 

[AndrewK788]

I know several people who are in prison right now. Some of them did what they are accused of and should rightfully be there serving there time. Some of them are not guilty. They are innocent, the justice system failed them and they are sitting in prison doing time they dont deserve, because they didnt do the job. So once you realize there are actually innocent people in jail, i think that should make one reconsider there stance on death penalty, harder time, etc.

There has been many instanced where the person serving time had been shown to be innocent after they have served 10-15-20-30 years in prison! That is horrible! With that being said, if we hold to "kill them all and kill them now", many innocent people will die for absoultely nothing.

I am all for guilty people to do there time!! But as a society, we need to be 100% sure they did what they are being accused of without a shadow of a doubt! Unequiatable evidence! But unfortuantly today, the court system and prosecutors are making grave errors!

So i was once for capital punishement, but what i have learned over the last several years, that has changed my mind.

I am all for what the Bible says, "Vengence is mine saith the Lord". He knows who is guilty and who isnt. I will let him decide how they should be punished. Who knows during that time, they may even give there hearts to Jesus and be saved to.

I understand where you're coming from. Trust me I know. I just finished taking a semester of sociology which, for some unknown reason, actually emphasized our prisons and such. I know there are innocents in prison and I can see the flaws in our justice system, such as plea bargaining etc. But this is beside the point. Basically, the entire justice/prison system needs revamped. Personally, I think we should be using our energy to press for a better justice system in convicting our "criminals" so there are fewer mistakes, instead of fighting the death penalty. This isn't meant as criticism at you but a general statement: it seems a lot of people see the weakness in our justice system but instead of trying to fix it they just say we can't be too harsh on criminals because we can't be sure if they're innocent or not. Well we should be able to tell! That's why we need a better justice system. And with that better justice system (yes I know I'm dreaming on this one) I think the death penalty should be used.

As for leaving the judgment to God, I agree partially. Their eternal judgment is in the hands of God. We aren't saying they are damned eternally. It's like what I said about forgiveness. It isn't that we don't forgive them. These are simply consequences.

 

[StormyOne]

Say what?

This is a new one for me Stormy. Please elaborate...

I have read several books (probably everything written) on Bundy regarding his evolving into a serial killer.... in those early books, prior to his confirmed date with death, he never mentioned anything about porn being a component of his becoming a serial killer.... If you read the early books you will see that his rejection by his father, and a girlfriend fueled his problem. In fact just about all of the women he killed looked like that first woman that rejected him...

Enter Dr. Dobson and the interview prior to Bundy being executed and he (Bundy) said that porn contributed to his problems and ultimately his desire to kill.... Dobson founder of focus on the family ran with those statements as "proof" from a serial killer that porn was dangerous and might lead to more perversity or even worse killing.....

Dobson was fooled.... Porn was not Bundy's issue.... he was what we call a psychopath.... and they are very very good at lying and having people believe that lie.... that's how he was able to kill as many as he did.... here is another perspective....

http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/2813/bundy_1.html

 

[mva1985]

I'm probably going to take some hits for this, but I have to say that 'tough on crime' is one of the main things I look for in a candidate. I am quite conservative politically actually.

I have not hidden the fact that I am pro-capital punishment on this forum. I also support the death penalty when necessary. Canada is notorious for coddling its criminals and I, for one, am sick of it. We have too many individuals who are still sucking the tax payers dry living on our penal system who, by all rights and by any standard of sane justice and common decency, should have been put to death long ago.

Some names that come to mind:

Clifford Olson (Canadian child rapist/serial killer) 11 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olsen

Paul Bernardo (Canadian rapist/torturer/murderer) 3 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo



Charles Ng (Chinese serial killer/torturer who fled to Canada for refuge) 25 victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ng



No appeals. No deals. No nonsense. Take them to a private cell, make them get on thier knees and blow thier brains out with a well-placed bullet to the back of the head. And, quite frankly, I think their scumbag lawyers should be kneeling right beside them and get the same thing.

That is how the Russian police dealt with Andrei Chikatilo, the worst serial killer on record (sadistically raped, murdered, mutilated and cannibalized 53 victims, mostly children) and they should be applauded for it.



Andrei was convicted on all counts and sentenced to death. In 1994 he was led into a bare concrete room with a drain in the center of the floor. Instructed to stare at the wall and not turn, he was shot in the back of the head, Russian-style, and executed.

http://members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/chikatilo.html

I have voted to bring the death penalty to Canada in every election and poll that I possibly can. I have lobbied Ottawa, written letters to the Prime Minister/Mayor/Premier and written letters to the newspapers.

And I don't care if it is not a deterrent. That is not the point nor the purpose. It is the principal of the matter.

It is justice.

Literally translated, the commandment says thou shalt do no murder. It does not prohibit killing by the state. Scripture tells us that ruling authourities do not bear the sword in vain. Sometimes killing is necessary and I think God is dishonored when those who enforce our laws protect these monsters from death and victimize thier victims in court by endless appeals.

Rare, I know, but I stand behind you 100% in this matter.

 

[StormyOne]

it has been shown that capital punishment is disproportionately used with minorities...... not to mention as someone pointed out earlier, innocent people are convicted and sentenced to either long prison terms or death....

 

[mva1985]

double post