straightforward said:
But how does Romans 2:1-16 fin into the Calvanist view?
It fits perfectly. As I said, election is not according to anything we do, so God is indeed no respector of persons. Being a Jew will not save you. Being a member of a church will not save you. Performing good works will not save you. And indeed, as verse 4 tells us, it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.
As I have stated, I do believe He is active in our lives and that I can see many places in my life (and the lives of others) that are 'turning points', so to speak, where God showes Himself in one way or another to man. As for why some do not turn: what about Rom 2:5? We are all in the same boat (before salvation)...none better than any other and all headed to hell but for our faith in the grace of God and His promise. That faith is possible for all who can see and hear because of what God has put there for all of us. Doesn't Rom. 1:18-32 explain this in detail (as if in parallel to John 3:16-21 but only looking at those who do reject God)? It definately does not say that these people were destined to this end but instead it says that they had a chance at faith, "for God made it evident to them." God made Himself evident to those who would still be unrepentent and destined for wrath. What did they lack? I would say faith (and will go further on this later in this post). But it was possible...and that is why they will have no excuse. Isn't this verse the exact opposite of what Calvanism states? If there is some kind of Calvanist apology for this I am very eager to hear it.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. -Rom 1:18-19
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. -John 3:19-21
The point is consistent between both. The light is evident, and the truth is undeniable, and yet ALL men suppress it and avoid it. There is none righteous, sf. Not one. All men love the darkness. These sections in Romans and John serve to drive home the foundational point of the Gospel...that all men are depraved to the point of being vile, and only the grace of God can bring them out of it. What you did not address in your reply above is what differentiates between the person who does come to faith and the person who doesn't. Is it intellectual? If so that's hardly fair since we only have what God gave us. Is it experiential? Then if God is in control of the experiences we have and knows our thoughts and desires, the question remains...what leads one to choose and the other to reject?
And where is faith in this 'equation'? If, as I have shown, scripture says that all are given by God what they need to produce faith (Rom 1:18-3 - knowledge of God) and that is why they have no excuse I will assume that is not what calvanists are talking about...And since God is shown in scripture to be impartial...you couldn't possibly be saying that he is. So is it faith that is given by God? I would really appreciate scripture on this if this is so.
Faith is the instrumental cause of our salvation. It is not the cause of our election. That was my point regarding election. I agree with you in that the point of the early part of Romans is to show that there is sufficient enough evidence in creation and in conscience to show forth the existence and glory of God. But the issue is not one if recognition so much as rejection. The whole point is to show that nobody is excusable...all men know of the existence of God, and they reject Him.
Scripture? Here are a few verses about the 'author and perfector of our faith' :
"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
that you may live." Deut 30:6
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son
gives life to whom He will." John 5:21
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Eph 2:1,5
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son,
and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matt 11:25-27
"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see,And hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10
"He said to them, But who do you say that I am?
Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Matt 16:15-17
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14
"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God.
The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14
"...in humility correcting those who are in opposition,
if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." 2 Tim 2:25,26
"John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven" John 3:27
"I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then ?h?neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase." 1 Cor 3:6,7
I suppose you mean beyond His remarkable word, how I was fearfully and wonderfully made, His creation that surrounds me every day of my life, and Jesus' death and resurrection...should I need more?! Well, of course God did something to 'enable' me...He set Himself all around me and He gave me all I needed to know about Him. Just as Rom 1:18 says He does for all of us sinners! The only difference between me and those in the verses of Rom. 1 is that I did not turn away to my own (or mans) knowledge but instead, through FAITH, to God. I would assume, at this point in my walk, that faith was the difference...look at Rom 1:18-32 (if you haven't already at this point) to see why they didn't...that may be more the question.
Again, you failed to address the real issue. The 'something' that God does is not just to appear to us through creation. If that were all He did, and it is evident to all, you still have to account for why you believed and someone else didn't. The answer to why a man does not have such faith is because he doesn't want to. He is spiritually dead. And Scripture is explicit that NONE want to. So the question remains...why does a man suddenly want to? As far as what IS needed, see the verses above. THAT is what God does.
Yes, so that again leads to faith because we do need that 1st before we seek but I do not believe that faith is given to us by God but generated by the things God gives us to see Him at all! Which does mean that God started the process of my salvation. But if I acknowledge that as the beginning to my salvation then I must also acknowledge that the same faith generating influences from God are just as readily available to everyone- including the Rom 1:18-32 sinners- if they choose to see it. I hear often that that choice would be considered a work. Yet, we know by scripture that we do nothing to "work" for our salvation. But, what if this choice is more an act of faith? Rom. 4:1-8 says specifically that faith is not a work. Therefore I did not work at all to reach salvation. The faith is the response requested from God and it is in no way a work.
Indeed, faith is not something politely requested...it is demanded. But to the spiritually dead person who has no desire to obey Him and doesn't seek after Him, faith doesn't happen. Faith is a response, a response that acknowledges God's sovereignty and holiness. That response is brought about by the regeneration of man, not vice versa.
I have just printed this article and will read it tonight. I am very interested in the 'foreknew' issue...especially since in the opening of 1Peter I noticed that He did meantion God's foreknowledge but not predestination. I also hope to finish up on Drotars opening posts on this thread...so I have alot of reading ahead of me tonight and tomorrow!
Good luck in your reading. I've just given you a little more to ponder
I look forward to your responses.
God bless!