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Exploring Christianity
Total Depravity and Self-Esteem
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<blockquote data-quote="ViaCrucis" data-source="post: 76776292" data-attributes="member: 293637"><p>I think there may have been a leap to an assumption on your part. I didn't say human beings are the center of the universe. If there are other intelligent beings in the cosmos they also share in redemption; and I'm not so bold as to claim that in the great big universe <em>only</em> human beings bear the divine image. But whatever may or may not be out there is, at least at present, entirely outside of what can be known or said.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The historic Christian position is that everything that exists is, by virtue of it being made, good. The declaration of God in the first chapter of Genesis is that God saw all that He made and saw that it was exceedingly good. Trees are good, dogs are good, the sun is good. So when I say human beings are innately good, this is what I mean.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Confessions explicitly reject a then-contemporary view of some Anabaptists who dogmatically said there would be an end. There's nothing in the Confessions that forbids Christians from hoping and praying for the salvation and the ultimate reconciliation of all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I apologize if that is the impression my post gave. What I was pointing out was that Total Depravity doesn't mean we can't have healthy self-esteem; because regardless of our current state as depraved sinners we are still the good creation of God, we are still human, we are still creatures who live, breathe, have feelings, who think, and are deserving of respect, kindness, and basic dignity. At no point am I invited to behold my neighbor in disdain, or as unworthy, or as less-than. My neighbor is always to be the object of my utmost affection. I am called to move outward from myself and be directed outward. To love my neighbor as myself and do unto others as I would have them do unto me.</p><p></p><p>Total Depravity does not render the human person less than human. You're a human person, and therefore you deserve respect, compassion, kindness, love, to have your needs met, to be treated with justice and mercy, etc.</p><p></p><p>Which is to say, a proper view of Total Depravity doesn't mean one can't have a healthy self-esteem.</p><p></p><p>When I confess myself to be a wretch and sinner, believe it or not I am not saying I don't deserve kindness, or that I don't deserve respect from my fellow human beings. I am recognizing within myself my failure to show that kindness and respect toward others--and that this is deeply, deeply, deeply wrong. <em>And I want that wrong to be righted</em>. That's repentance. My esteem as a human person isn't rooted in how I see myself under the condemnation of the Law, but in how I see myself in the love of God which I behold through Jesus Christ. Likewise, I do not esteem my neighbors through the condemnation of the Law, but again in the love of God in Jesus Christ.</p><p></p><p>Or, more accurately, I daily seek to do so, I regularly fail here--I sin, I'm a sinner. And thus creeps in hypocrisy, when I say I love my neighbor, but stumble and fail to do so; when my actions and my words don't match. As St. Paul says in Romans 7, the good I want to do I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do, I do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I suppose on this there is simple disagreement. I don't see self-esteem and the recognition of one's sinfulness as at odds. Because, again, I believe the esteem of the human person is located not in sin, but God's love.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would first want to be very clear that I do not hold to a view of hell that involves eternal conscious torment in separation from God in some place called "hell". I have frequently expressed my (admittedly diverse and complicated) thoughts on that subject many times in other discussions.</p><p></p><p>With that said, I certainly would say I deserve hell. Which doesn't mean I deserve to be punished for all eternity in some fire and brimstone pit being tortured forever. But rather I mean that the fruit of myself, left to myself and my own ambitions would eventually become hell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I would identify that disparity--between what we ought do and what we don't do as sin. The cause of which is concupiscence or "Original Sin"; the inborn disordering of our passions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One might argue it's a matter of perspective. In the discussion of sin, we are all of us the former; but that doesn't mean the latter is wrong. We are humans with social needs who need to care for the needs of others. I don't view these two statements you've made as mutually exclusive.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can't speak to the original link other than the definition of Total Depravity given in your OP, which didn't sound like it disagreed with the Lutheran understanding.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would agree. That's, in part, why repentance is important. Repentance is about the recognition of our failure and the need to change--which starts from the inside. "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds" "have this same attitude in you that was in Christ Jesus", etc.</p><p></p><p>But the Christian understands this is something much deeper than psychology and sociology; these things are indicative of a deep and abiding wrongness. These things point to a sickness in the world, not just in men, but a sickness in creation itself. The sickness of sin and death.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am of several minds when it comes to the topic of morality. To an extent, I don't even know that I find the term morality to be helpful beyond talking about society in a more mundane way. I think the subject of sin and death means talking about something much bigger and more important than morality; and that's the subject of justice. When I turn on the news what saddens me isn't the lack of "good morals", but the lack of justice. Injustice being done to others, injustice runs a straight line from bottom to top and back again in all our systems and enterprises.</p><p></p><p>And I want to be clear, when I talk about justice I'm not talking about "getting the bad guys", I mean the fact that victims of oppression, victims of systemic pain and suffering are not given justice. There is no justice for the parents whose children were lost in the school shooting in Uvalde, TX. And even here, I'm not talking about the justice of punishing those who failed; but the injustice that these parents lost their children to something terrible. That injustice runs deep, it is wound in the world, in the cosmos itself and it cuts through each and every one of us. </p><p></p><p>-CryptoLutheran</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ViaCrucis, post: 76776292, member: 293637"] I think there may have been a leap to an assumption on your part. I didn't say human beings are the center of the universe. If there are other intelligent beings in the cosmos they also share in redemption; and I'm not so bold as to claim that in the great big universe [I]only[/I] human beings bear the divine image. But whatever may or may not be out there is, at least at present, entirely outside of what can be known or said. The historic Christian position is that everything that exists is, by virtue of it being made, good. The declaration of God in the first chapter of Genesis is that God saw all that He made and saw that it was exceedingly good. Trees are good, dogs are good, the sun is good. So when I say human beings are innately good, this is what I mean. The Confessions explicitly reject a then-contemporary view of some Anabaptists who dogmatically said there would be an end. There's nothing in the Confessions that forbids Christians from hoping and praying for the salvation and the ultimate reconciliation of all. I apologize if that is the impression my post gave. What I was pointing out was that Total Depravity doesn't mean we can't have healthy self-esteem; because regardless of our current state as depraved sinners we are still the good creation of God, we are still human, we are still creatures who live, breathe, have feelings, who think, and are deserving of respect, kindness, and basic dignity. At no point am I invited to behold my neighbor in disdain, or as unworthy, or as less-than. My neighbor is always to be the object of my utmost affection. I am called to move outward from myself and be directed outward. To love my neighbor as myself and do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Total Depravity does not render the human person less than human. You're a human person, and therefore you deserve respect, compassion, kindness, love, to have your needs met, to be treated with justice and mercy, etc. Which is to say, a proper view of Total Depravity doesn't mean one can't have a healthy self-esteem. When I confess myself to be a wretch and sinner, believe it or not I am not saying I don't deserve kindness, or that I don't deserve respect from my fellow human beings. I am recognizing within myself my failure to show that kindness and respect toward others--and that this is deeply, deeply, deeply wrong. [I]And I want that wrong to be righted[/I]. That's repentance. My esteem as a human person isn't rooted in how I see myself under the condemnation of the Law, but in how I see myself in the love of God which I behold through Jesus Christ. Likewise, I do not esteem my neighbors through the condemnation of the Law, but again in the love of God in Jesus Christ. Or, more accurately, I daily seek to do so, I regularly fail here--I sin, I'm a sinner. And thus creeps in hypocrisy, when I say I love my neighbor, but stumble and fail to do so; when my actions and my words don't match. As St. Paul says in Romans 7, the good I want to do I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do, I do. I suppose on this there is simple disagreement. I don't see self-esteem and the recognition of one's sinfulness as at odds. Because, again, I believe the esteem of the human person is located not in sin, but God's love. I would first want to be very clear that I do not hold to a view of hell that involves eternal conscious torment in separation from God in some place called "hell". I have frequently expressed my (admittedly diverse and complicated) thoughts on that subject many times in other discussions. With that said, I certainly would say I deserve hell. Which doesn't mean I deserve to be punished for all eternity in some fire and brimstone pit being tortured forever. But rather I mean that the fruit of myself, left to myself and my own ambitions would eventually become hell. And I would identify that disparity--between what we ought do and what we don't do as sin. The cause of which is concupiscence or "Original Sin"; the inborn disordering of our passions. One might argue it's a matter of perspective. In the discussion of sin, we are all of us the former; but that doesn't mean the latter is wrong. We are humans with social needs who need to care for the needs of others. I don't view these two statements you've made as mutually exclusive. I can't speak to the original link other than the definition of Total Depravity given in your OP, which didn't sound like it disagreed with the Lutheran understanding. I would agree. That's, in part, why repentance is important. Repentance is about the recognition of our failure and the need to change--which starts from the inside. "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds" "have this same attitude in you that was in Christ Jesus", etc. But the Christian understands this is something much deeper than psychology and sociology; these things are indicative of a deep and abiding wrongness. These things point to a sickness in the world, not just in men, but a sickness in creation itself. The sickness of sin and death. I am of several minds when it comes to the topic of morality. To an extent, I don't even know that I find the term morality to be helpful beyond talking about society in a more mundane way. I think the subject of sin and death means talking about something much bigger and more important than morality; and that's the subject of justice. When I turn on the news what saddens me isn't the lack of "good morals", but the lack of justice. Injustice being done to others, injustice runs a straight line from bottom to top and back again in all our systems and enterprises. And I want to be clear, when I talk about justice I'm not talking about "getting the bad guys", I mean the fact that victims of oppression, victims of systemic pain and suffering are not given justice. There is no justice for the parents whose children were lost in the school shooting in Uvalde, TX. And even here, I'm not talking about the justice of punishing those who failed; but the injustice that these parents lost their children to something terrible. That injustice runs deep, it is wound in the world, in the cosmos itself and it cuts through each and every one of us. -CryptoLutheran [/QUOTE]
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