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Exploring Christianity
Total Depravity and Self-Esteem
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<blockquote data-quote="doubtingmerle" data-source="post: 76775787" data-attributes="member: 6687"><p>Greetings, ViaCrucis. Its always good to see your informed perspective on things.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm well aware that, in addition to a belief in Total Depravity, there is a belief that humanity is central to the universe, made in the image of God. I think this is a thought distortion in the opposite direction. If a God exists, how would we even know that we are in his image? Perhaps ancients who thought that were mistaken.</p><p></p><p>Two thought distortions in opposite directions does not equal truth.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Being human is innately <em>human</em>. Most of us find that good.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree there is a problem with thoughts being curved inwards such that they ignore the needs of others. We are social creatures that need other people. If we react in ways that alienate others, that is not good.</p><p></p><p>The issue is not whether we are sometimes curved inwards, but whether we are innately bad. I see you support the Augsburg Confession. It says:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost. (<a href="https://bookofconcord.org/augsburg-confession/" target="_blank">The Augsburg Confession</a> )</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p><p>And if there is any question of what the Augsburg Confession means by "eternal death", the confession says elsewhere that "ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end." The confession specifically disagrees with those that say the torment will end.</p><p></p><p>So no, I do not think we can interpret depravity as taught in the Augsburg Confession as simply condemning acts of selfishness by otherwise good people. It is talking about people truly deserving eternal torment. That is a problem.</p><p></p><p>I too find humanity to be of intrinsic goodness. But I can not say that the universe, or a God of the universe agrees, for I have no way of knowing what they think. I find people to be of value and worth, and so I live my life based on that.</p><p></p><p>Yes, we all want to be treated well. And yes, we should treat others well, just like we expect them to treat us well.</p><p></p><p>This in no way refutes that the Bible, and Christian teaching, often condemn people as unworthy, <a href="http://anglicanhistory.org/usa/advent/misoff.html" target="_blank">miserable offenders.</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that self-esteem affects the way we treat others. However, I do not think self-esteem is the same as caring for our own needs. They are two different things. One can care for his body, while thinking that he is a wretched, miserable, hell-deserving wretch.</p><p></p><p>But one will do better if he has a more realistic yet positive view of himself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do we or do we not deserve hell?</p><p></p><p>I can't say if there is something that drives me from God, for I don't know if God exists.</p><p></p><p>But from my neighbors, yes, like all humans, the thoughts that originate within our own minds are more accessible than thoughts that originate in other minds. So it is much easier to attend to those thoughts that originate from neurons that are fixated on the self.</p><p></p><p>But the healthy mind realizes it lives in a social word with social needs, and so is concerned about the needs of others also. This concern comes to us through cognitively thinking about others, instead of the more direct root that one's own needs are felt through the senses. It sometimes takes effort to develop sensitivity to others.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Am I a filthy person who needs to be cleaned? Or am I a human with social needs, who sometimes needs to develop better attention to the needs of others?</p><p></p><p>I don't see that the link in the OP is talking about this kind of human frailty.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In addition to mercy, we need cognitive awareness of our thought distortions, and awareness of unhealthy thinking patterns that can be improved.</p><p></p><p>We all are on the side of being moral. Whether that morality means prayer is a significant question. And whether good morality involves turning the other cheek when attacked is also a good question.</p><p></p><p>But yes, we should all work to live cooperatively with others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doubtingmerle, post: 76775787, member: 6687"] Greetings, ViaCrucis. Its always good to see your informed perspective on things. I'm well aware that, in addition to a belief in Total Depravity, there is a belief that humanity is central to the universe, made in the image of God. I think this is a thought distortion in the opposite direction. If a God exists, how would we even know that we are in his image? Perhaps ancients who thought that were mistaken. Two thought distortions in opposite directions does not equal truth. Being human is innately [I]human[/I]. Most of us find that good. I agree there is a problem with thoughts being curved inwards such that they ignore the needs of others. We are social creatures that need other people. If we react in ways that alienate others, that is not good. The issue is not whether we are sometimes curved inwards, but whether we are innately bad. I see you support the Augsburg Confession. It says: [INDENT][INDENT]since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost. ([URL='https://bookofconcord.org/augsburg-confession/']The Augsburg Confession[/URL] ) [/INDENT][/INDENT] And if there is any question of what the Augsburg Confession means by "eternal death", the confession says elsewhere that "ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end." The confession specifically disagrees with those that say the torment will end. So no, I do not think we can interpret depravity as taught in the Augsburg Confession as simply condemning acts of selfishness by otherwise good people. It is talking about people truly deserving eternal torment. That is a problem. I too find humanity to be of intrinsic goodness. But I can not say that the universe, or a God of the universe agrees, for I have no way of knowing what they think. I find people to be of value and worth, and so I live my life based on that. Yes, we all want to be treated well. And yes, we should treat others well, just like we expect them to treat us well. This in no way refutes that the Bible, and Christian teaching, often condemn people as unworthy, [URL='http://anglicanhistory.org/usa/advent/misoff.html']miserable offenders.[/URL] I agree that self-esteem affects the way we treat others. However, I do not think self-esteem is the same as caring for our own needs. They are two different things. One can care for his body, while thinking that he is a wretched, miserable, hell-deserving wretch. But one will do better if he has a more realistic yet positive view of himself. Do we or do we not deserve hell? I can't say if there is something that drives me from God, for I don't know if God exists. But from my neighbors, yes, like all humans, the thoughts that originate within our own minds are more accessible than thoughts that originate in other minds. So it is much easier to attend to those thoughts that originate from neurons that are fixated on the self. But the healthy mind realizes it lives in a social word with social needs, and so is concerned about the needs of others also. This concern comes to us through cognitively thinking about others, instead of the more direct root that one's own needs are felt through the senses. It sometimes takes effort to develop sensitivity to others. Am I a filthy person who needs to be cleaned? Or am I a human with social needs, who sometimes needs to develop better attention to the needs of others? I don't see that the link in the OP is talking about this kind of human frailty. In addition to mercy, we need cognitive awareness of our thought distortions, and awareness of unhealthy thinking patterns that can be improved. We all are on the side of being moral. Whether that morality means prayer is a significant question. And whether good morality involves turning the other cheek when attacked is also a good question. But yes, we should all work to live cooperatively with others. [/QUOTE]
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