Torah and Grace. Everyone Has A Role.

[Junia]

What do you think about those who preach grace and the Law of Christ, but preach against the keeping of the Mosaic law? Should those who keep the New covenant Law be silent while people are still submitting themselves to the Old covenant Law(in your view)?

i have a lot of respect for Jews who come to know Jesus as Messiah and continue to keep the Torah. i have known some. ther ei sno Jew nor Gentile anymore- we are ONE in Christ.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

i have a lot of respect for Jews who come to know Jesus as Messiah and continue to keep the Torah. i have known some. ther ei sno Jew nor Gentile anymore- we are ONE in Christ.

Yes we are one blood, one nation, one people in Christ. But the question is should a person who follows the New law of Christ remain silent and not correct those who follow the Old law of Moses that was completed in Christ?

 

[Junia]

Yes we are one blood, one nation, one people in Christ. But the question is should a person who follows the New law of Christ remain silent and not correct those who follow the Old law of Moses that was completed in Christ?

good question. i think wil have to ask God that one!

 

[Soyeong]

Yes we are one blood, one nation, one people in Christ. But the question is should a person who follows the New law of Christ remain silent and not correct those who follow the Old law of Moses that was completed in Christ?

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so Jesus did not do that. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In John 14:23-24, Jesus that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the father, so he did not teach his own laws, and if we love him, then we will obey what the Father has taught. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them will ever become old.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so Jesus did not do that. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In John 14:23-24, Jesus that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the father, so he did not teach his own laws, and if we love him, then we will obey what the Father has taught. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them will ever become old.

Christ lived a sinless life under the Law of Moses that he might complete the law of Moses and finish it, thus bringing in the more perfect law of Faith which is after the Promise given to Abraham. He did not follow the Law of Moses to show us how to live under it, he followed the Law to finish it to live a sinless life under the Law and be the perfect sacrifice for sin. The word used for eternal in Psalms 119:160 can also mean for a time or for an age, and that is exactly what it is talking about when it is speaking of the Law of Moses, and its age has passed and given way to the perfect Law of Christ(a New Law). Christ's commandments were spoken in Parable that none could understand it until after his death and resurrection, that is why the understanding of the Apostles had to be opened. This was done so that he would not be breaking the Law of Moses in preaching the New law to come which is the Law of Christ. He did not add or take away from the Law of Moses, he just completed and finished the entire law and then gave us a New one.

God Bless and Guide you

 

[Soyeong]

Christ lived a sinless life under the Law of Moses that he might complete the law of Moses and finish it, thus bringing in the more perfect law of Faith which is after the Promise given to Abraham. He did not follow the Law of Moses to show us how to live under it, he followed the Law to finish it to live a sinless life under the Law and be the perfect sacrifice for sin. The word used for eternal in Psalms 119:160 can also mean for a time or for an age, and that is exactly what it is talking about when it is speaking of the Law of Moses, and its age has passed and given way to the perfect Law of Christ(a New Law). Christ's commandments were spoken in Parable that none could understand it until after his death and resurrection, that is why the understanding of the Apostles had to be opened. This was done so that he would not be breaking the Law of Moses in preaching the New law to come which is the Law of Christ. He did not add or take away from the Law of Moses, he just completed and finished the entire law and then gave us a New one.

God Bless and Guide you

The Bible does not teach anything in regard to the concept of completing or finishing the law. Christ was one of many who fulfilled the law by teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example. God's law is already perfect (Psalms 19:7), so it can't become any more perfect and God did not make any mistakes when He gave the law that needed perfecting. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so it is the law of faith.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). So Christ taught obedience to it both by word and by example and it wouldn't make any sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what he taught.. The goal of disciple is to come under a rabbi's yoke in order to learn from them how to obey the Mosaic Law.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so all of His righteous laws are also eternal, not just for a a time or age. God does not change. Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can't be temporary unless God's righteousness is also temporary. Christ did not hypocritically preach any brand new laws and was not in disagreement with what the Father has commanded. If Christ tried to add a brand new law and removed the old one, then that would mean that he sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 regardless of when it was understood that was what he was trying to do. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that he finished any laws undermines both the purpose of his ministry and what he went to the cross to accomplish.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

The Bible does not teach anything in regard to the concept of completing or finishing the law. Christ was one of many who fulfilled the law by teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example. God's law is already perfect (Psalms 19:7), so it can't become any more perfect and God did not make any mistakes when He gave the law that needed perfecting. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so it is the law of faith.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). So Christ taught obedience to it both by word and by example and it wouldn't make any sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what he taught.. The goal of disciple is to come under a rabbi's yoke in order to learn from them how to obey the Mosaic Law.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so all of His righteous laws are also eternal, not just for a a time or age. God does not change. Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can't be temporary unless God's righteousness is also temporary. Christ did not hypocritically preach any brand new laws and was not in disagreement with what the Father has commanded. If Christ tried to add a brand new law and removed the old one, then that would mean that he sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 regardless of when it was understood that was what he was trying to do. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that he finished any laws undermines both the purpose of his ministry and what he went to the cross to accomplish.

Well brother, I know how this conversation plays out. I could send you a very detailed study I wrote that lays out exactly why the law is fulfilled(it is about 10 ten pages long). But in the end you will most likely just say I am wrong and that their is no truth in what I preach on this matter.

So instead I will say may God bless and Guide you to the truth and light of his word.

 

[Soyeong]

Well brother, I know how this conversation plays out. I could send you a very detailed study I wrote that lays out exactly why the law is fulfilled(it is about 10 ten pages long). But in the end you will most likely just say I am wrong and that their is no truth in what I preach on this matter.

So instead I will say may God bless and Guide you to the truth and light of his word.

I didn't contest that the law has been fulfilled, but rather I contented what it means for the law to be fulfilled. Nowhere else in the Bible is there any sort of support for the concept of someone being able to complete or finish the law if they were able to live in sinless obedience to it. It doesn't even make sense to think that someone who spent their life teaching a perfect example of how to walk in obedience the Mosaic Law would undermine everything that they taught, especially when we are told to follow Christ's example (1 Peter 2:21-22), and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it, so that should not be interpreted as meaning essentially the same thing. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses, not as finishing it. Likewise, in Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilling the Gospel refers to teaching obedience to it by word and by example, not to finishing it. Jesus was a Jew speaking to other Jews, so how fulfilling the law is understood within the context of Judaism is how we should understand it rather than inserting our own ideas.