Torah and Grace. Everyone Has A Role.

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

So what about clean and unclean? Clearly, the difference was from at least the time of Noah. What about sacrifices? Abel and Cain were obviously told what were proper sacrifices. One brother obeyed and the other didn't. One cannot break up and separate the law into convenient pieces as you and I have cited the same scripture as no jot or tittle of the law shall vanish until heaven and earth have passed away. Heaven and earth are still here, so the Law in its entirely still exists.


When scripture gives us the reason, it is folly to make up a reason of our own. Peter himself gave the reason for his dream about clean and unclean being applied to people/gentiles - not food. There is no record in the entirety of the NT that Peter or the rest of the apostles changed their dietary habits.

The Sabbath is indeed eternal so why do most churches worship on Sunday? For the record the Roman Catholic Church substituted Sunday as the "Lord's Day" in effect making it as the Sabbath day without having any scriptural warrant whatsoever. Protestants merrily follow along giving no thought to it at all
- despite the Sabbath day being eternal.

If Paul thought the ordinances were finished, why did he continue to observe the Passover? Read Col 2 carefully again. V.16 states let no one (outside the body of Christ) judge you. The judgment of outsiders here pertains to the fact that the Galatian believers are in fact observing food/drink, feast days, new moons and Sabbaths which are commanded by God. How do we know this? Because the very next verse states that they ARE a shadow of things to come - NOT - WERE a shadow of things to come. If the Galatians were not observing these commandments of God, then the utilization of the past tense "were" would have been appropriate but the fact that they "are" still a shadow of things to come dictates that the Galatians were in the habit of still practicing God's ordained meeting times - as a shadow of things yet to come.


To the very end of the scriptures, we see no record at all of the Apostles ever departing from the law based upon their actions. If you have found one, please cite it for me.

All meats were unclean in the time of Noah(before the flood), so to say that the measure he was using to judge was what animals were good to eat(clean) and what animals were not(unclean) does not hold any water. Instead it can clearly be seen that he judged them not by what was clean or unclean to eat but what was clean or unclean in nature, since to eat any animal was a sin and unclean during his time before the flood(only plants given to eat-Genesis 1:28-30; Genesis 2:16; Genesis 3:17-19). But when the command came he was told that every beast and animal was good to eat with no limitation being made. We know from everything the Lord has said up to that point that when it says all animals and all beasts he means all animals and all beasts for example:
Was man only given dominion over the clean beasts? Or was God speaking only of the Unclean beasts here?
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Did Adam leave the Unclean animals in nature without a name? Or was it the Clean beasts in nature that went nameless?
Genesis 2:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Was the serpent cursed above every clean beast in nature or was it every unclean beast?
Genesis 3:
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

We can see from a clear examination of scripture that when the Lord says every beast and every animal he means just that. So to Noah all animals were given to be eaten, and before the flood no animals could be eaten.
Genesis 9:
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Abel and Cain made offerings to the Lord yes, but we do not see it happening by command brother. The offerings they made from everything we see in scripture were free will offerings from the fruit of their hard work, and out of appreciation for the Lord. We never see them offering sacrifice for sin though, just offering from the fruit of their hard work.

I did not break the Law into pieces I simply showed the division of the Law as stated by the Lord through his prophets, ministers, His Son Yahshua, and the Apostles. Not one part of the law will pass without the rest Brother, it will be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one part of the Law to be finished/completed without the rest of it. That heaven and earth still stand is a testament that the whole law, every jot and tittle, was finished in Christ.

I agree we should not make up an answer but rather compare scripture with scripture and let the word of God interpret the word of God. The meaning of the Dream was revealed to Peter by the Lord. It was indeed about gentiles. As to the Apostles changing their diet we do in fact see Paul speaking of this, saying how food becomes a sin to eat in the NT showing that if a man have faith all meats are clean if they be received with prayer and thanksgiving in the name of The lord first before eating.
Short list of NT requirements here:
All Foods are Lawful to eat:
1. All meats are clean(Matt 15:11,17; 1 Cor 10:23,30; Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Tim 4:34,5; Mark 7:15,18-19; 1 Cor 6:12, 13)

2. All food is made clean only by thanksgiving and prayer(1 Tim 4:3,4,5; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Cor 10:30).Ephesians 5:20 give thanks for all things in the Name of the Lord.

3. The kingdom of God is not what we eat(Romans 14:14,17,18,20)

4. All meats are clean so none can judge us in what we eat(Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:3,4,10,13)

5. What we eat is not a sin if we are strong in the faith and believe that any food is okay to eat and not a sin(1 Tim 4:3; Romans 14:5,14,20; 1 Cor 10:23)


When/How a Food Becomes unlawful to eat
1. If we eat and it become evil spoken of, it is a sin(1 Cor 10:30;Romans 14:16)

2. If we eat and it brings our brother to stumble or bring him to offence, it is a sin(1 Corinthians 10:25,27,28,29,32; Romans 14:13,20,21,24)

3. If we do not believe and we eat, then it is a sin(Romans 14:15,19,20,21,23)

4. We are to Abstain from eating meat with blood still in it(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25

5 . We are to Abstain from eating meat that has been strangled(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25)

I have read Colossians 2 carefully brother, but it must be looked at in the Context of Hebrews which shows that the whole law was created to point to Christ and his atoning blood and to the New covenant/the Law of Christ. As Paul said to the Galatians the Law was simply our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, now that he has come we are under his authority not the law of Moses. The feasts all pointed to Christ and his work, all of them were finished in him every need that we had to keep them is finished, but what does remain is that the Anti-typical fulfillment of these things have not all come to pass. For example the Anti-typical fulfillment of the wave sheaf first and second harvests which will occur in the Church, the first harvest/first fruits in the Slaughter of Ez 9 and the second fruits in the second living harvest gathered in by the 144,000. The wave sheaf offering is still a shadow of this coming event, but ever since Christ came we no longer have to keep the physical feast days but rather we are to wait for it's anti-typical fulfillment.

They spoke openly against the keeping of the Law of Moses throughout the entire NT(which is everything after Christ's death and resurrection).

 

[Blade]

It will never come down to how one of us explains His word. By His Spirit He draws all men to Him. Jesus or Yeshua.. its He is the way the truth and the life. Be it called TORAH or Bible NT OT.. He is the word. He is the one all knees will bow and tongue confess is lord.

Grace.. amen amen and amen! Will always never get in HIS way by my personal belief. He is truth not me.

 

[Oldmantook]

All meats were unclean in the time of Noah(before the flood), so to say that the measure he was using to judge was what animals were good to eat(clean) and what animals were not(unclean) does not hold any water. Instead it can clearly be seen that he judged them not by what was clean or unclean to eat but what was clean or unclean in nature, since to eat any animal was a sin and unclean during his time before the flood(only plants given to eat-Genesis 1:28-30; Genesis 2:16; Genesis 3:17-19). But when the command came he was told that every beast and animal was good to eat with no limitation being made. We know from everything the Lord has said up to that point that when it says all animals and all beasts he means all animals and all beasts for example:
Was man only given dominion over the clean beasts? Or was God speaking only of the Unclean beasts here?
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Did Adam leave the Unclean animals in nature without a name? Or was it the Clean beasts in nature that went nameless?
Genesis 2:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Was the serpent cursed above every clean beast in nature or was it every unclean beast?
Genesis 3:
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

We can see from a clear examination of scripture that when the Lord says every beast and every animal he means just that. So to Noah all animals were given to be eaten, and before the flood no animals could be eaten.
Genesis 9:
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Abel and Cain made offerings to the Lord yes, but we do not see it happening by command brother. The offerings they made from everything we see in scripture were free will offerings from the fruit of their hard work, and out of appreciation for the Lord. We never see them offering sacrifice for sin though, just offering from the fruit of their hard work.

I did not break the Law into pieces I simply showed the division of the Law as stated by the Lord through his prophets, ministers, His Son Yahshua, and the Apostles. Not one part of the law will pass without the rest Brother, it will be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one part of the Law to be finished/completed without the rest of it. That heaven and earth still stand is a testament that the whole law, every jot and tittle, was finished in Christ.

I agree we should not make up an answer but rather compare scripture with scripture and let the word of God interpret the word of God. The meaning of the Dream was revealed to Peter by the Lord. It was indeed about gentiles. As to the Apostles changing their diet we do in fact see Paul speaking of this, saying how food becomes a sin to eat in the NT showing that if a man have faith all meats are clean if they be received with prayer and thanksgiving in the name of The lord first before eating.
Short list of NT requirements here:
All Foods are Lawful to eat:
1. All meats are clean(Matt 15:11,17; 1 Cor 10:23,30; Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Tim 4:34,5; Mark 7:15,18-19; 1 Cor 6:12, 13)

2. All food is made clean only by thanksgiving and prayer(1 Tim 4:3,4,5; Romans 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20; 1 Cor 10:30).Ephesians 5:20 give thanks for all things in the Name of the Lord.

3. The kingdom of God is not what we eat(Romans 14:14,17,18,20)

4. All meats are clean so none can judge us in what we eat(Colossians 2:16; Romans 14:3,4,10,13)

5. What we eat is not a sin if we are strong in the faith and believe that any food is okay to eat and not a sin(1 Tim 4:3; Romans 14:5,14,20; 1 Cor 10:23)


When/How a Food Becomes unlawful to eat
1. If we eat and it become evil spoken of, it is a sin(1 Cor 10:30;Romans 14:16)

2. If we eat and it brings our brother to stumble or bring him to offence, it is a sin(1 Corinthians 10:25,27,28,29,32; Romans 14:13,20,21,24)

3. If we do not believe and we eat, then it is a sin(Romans 14:15,19,20,21,23)

4. We are to Abstain from eating meat with blood still in it(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25

5 . We are to Abstain from eating meat that has been strangled(Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25)

I have read Colossians 2 carefully brother, but it must be looked at in the Context of Hebrews which shows that the whole law was created to point to Christ and his atoning blood and to the New covenant/the Law of Christ. As Paul said to the Galatians the Law was simply our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, now that he has come we are under his authority not the law of Moses. The feasts all pointed to Christ and his work, all of them were finished in him every need that we had to keep them is finished, but what does remain is that the Anti-typical fulfillment of these things have not all come to pass. For example the Anti-typical fulfillment of the wave sheaf first and second harvests which will occur in the Church, the first harvest/first fruits in the Slaughter of Ez 9 and the second fruits in the second living harvest gathered in by the 144,000. The wave sheaf offering is still a shadow of this coming event, but ever since Christ came we no longer have to keep the physical feast days but rather we are to wait for it's anti-typical fulfillment.

They spoke openly against the keeping of the Law of Moses throughout the entire NT(which is everything after Christ's death and resurrection).

The fact is the distinction between clean and unclean animals/meat was evident before Moses as Noah knew the difference. Moses simply codified it into law. Since you believe the Mosaic law regarding dietary prohibition is irrelevant today and believers can eat any kind of meat they want to, how does that square with your concomitant belief that not one jot or tittle shall disappear until heaven and earth pass away? Under your belief, the dietary law has disappeared - despite heaven and earth still existing. Problematic for you.
Secondly you quote Acts 15:19-20 but you fail to cite v.21. Why is that as v.21 itself gives the specific reason for the short list of prohibitions in vs.19-20? V.21 states that Moses (the law of Moses) is preached and read in every synagogue and city every Sabbath. This means that the short list mentioned in v.20 which was intentionally kept short in order to not make it difficult for the gentiles to become converted.
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
As the converted gentiles to the faith were present at the synagogues every Sabbath where Moses was preached, they would then understand the depth and breadth of the whole law as it applies to them, lest it overwhelm them initially and "make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."
Scripture interprets scripture. When the specific reason is given in the passage itself, it is folly for us to keep searching for a reason.

Your list of objections do not bear up to scrutiny and show me that you have not really studied this subject in depth. I strongly suggest you do so as I'll just use your first citation as an example of your error. You claimed that all meats are clean based on Matt 15:11,17. Have you not read v.2 where the Pharisees ask Jesus "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied in v.3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking their tradition (oral law/Talmud) - NOT - the command of God. Big difference! No where in the entirety of the Mosaic law is there a command that one must wash hands before eating. Jesus thus chastises them for submitting to their own oral law rather than obeying the written law of God. Jesus' disciples were not guilty of anything in the written law. This passage has nothing at all to do with "all meats are clean" as you allege but rather with hand washing which is not even mentioned in the law.

Regarding Colossians 2, you have neglected to address the fact that v.17 states that "these things" referring to feast days, new moon days, Sabbath days in v.17 ARE A SHADOW of things to come. If they "point to Christ" as you allege, why are they not WERE A SHADOW of things to come. Has Christ not already come?? Your explanation remains problematic.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Secondly you quote Acts 15:19-20 but you fail to cite v.21. Why is that as v.21 itself gives the specific reason for the short list of prohibitions in vs.19-20? V.21 states that Moses (the law of Moses) is preached and read in every synagogue and city every Sabbath. This means that the short list mentioned in v.20 which was intentionally kept short in order to not make it difficult for the gentiles to become converted.
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
As the converted gentiles to the faith were present at the synagogues every Sabbath where Moses was preached, they would then understand the depth and breadth of the whole law as it applies to them, lest it overwhelm them initially and "make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."
Scripture interprets scripture. When the specific reason is given in the passage itself, it is folly for us to keep searching for a reason.

Your list of objections do not bear up to scrutiny and show me that you have not really studied this subject in depth. I strongly suggest you do so as I'll just use your first citation as an example of your error. You claimed that all meats are clean based on Matt 15:11,17. Have you not read v.2 where the Pharisees ask Jesus "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied in v.3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking their tradition (oral law/Talmud) - NOT - the command of God. Big difference! No where in the entirety of the Mosaic law is there a command that one must wash hands before eating. Jesus thus chastises them for submitting to their own oral law rather than obeying the written law of God. Jesus' disciples were not guilty of anything in the written law. This passage has nothing at all to do with "all meats are clean" as you allege but rather with hand washing which is not even mentioned in the law.

Very true. A "Ger toshav" (gentile followers of the laws of Noakh) and "Ger tzaddik" (righteous gentiles who follow Torah...a full convert) are different designations for gentiles entering or converting to Judaism. These are "resident aliens" who reside with Israel. In the verses quoted from Acts 15, a ger toshav would eventually become a ger tzaddik.

 

[dqhall]

God uses each one of us in various ways for various purposes. All God’s word given to us is needed.

If you are preaching Grace, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Torah.

And if you are preaching Torah, please do not oppose those who stress the importance of Grace.

It is God’s business and He knows what He’s doing. God bless.

Grace is goodness. This goodness is vague without context and explanation. How is an act of grace different from obedience to a good law?

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

Paul preached against fornication (inappropriate contenteia). Premarital and extramarital sex is wrong wether one emphasizes law and enforcement or voluntary acceptance.

 

[dqhall]

The fact is the distinction between clean and unclean animals/meat was evident before Moses as Noah knew the difference. Moses simply codified it into law. Since you believe the Mosaic law regarding dietary prohibition is irrelevant today and believers can eat any kind of meat they want to, how does that square with your concomitant belief that not one jot or tittle shall disappear until heaven and earth pass away? Under your belief, the dietary law has disappeared - despite heaven and earth still existing. Problematic for you.
Secondly you quote Acts 15:19-20 but you fail to cite v.21. Why is that as v.21 itself gives the specific reason for the short list of prohibitions in vs.19-20? V.21 states that Moses (the law of Moses) is preached and read in every synagogue and city every Sabbath. This means that the short list mentioned in v.20 which was intentionally kept short in order to not make it difficult for the gentiles to become converted.
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
As the converted gentiles to the faith were present at the synagogues every Sabbath where Moses was preached, they would then understand the depth and breadth of the whole law as it applies to them, lest it overwhelm them initially and "make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."
Scripture interprets scripture. When the specific reason is given in the passage itself, it is folly for us to keep searching for a reason.

Your list of objections do not bear up to scrutiny and show me that you have not really studied this subject in depth. I strongly suggest you do so as I'll just use your first citation as an example of your error. You claimed that all meats are clean based on Matt 15:11,17. Have you not read v.2 where the Pharisees ask Jesus "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied in v.3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking their tradition (oral law/Talmud) - NOT - the command of God. Big difference! No where in the entirety of the Mosaic law is there a command that one must wash hands before eating. Jesus thus chastises them for submitting to their own oral law rather than obeying the written law of God. Jesus' disciples were not guilty of anything in the written law. This passage has nothing at all to do with "all meats are clean" as you allege but rather with hand washing which is not even mentioned in the law.

Regarding Colossians 2, you have neglected to address the fact that v.17 states that "these things" referring to feast days, new moon days, Sabbath days in v.17 ARE A SHADOW of things to come. If they "point to Christ" as you allege, why are they not WERE A SHADOW of things to come. Has Christ not already come?? Your explanation remains problematic.

Sometimes science and common sense let us know not to eat bats and to wash our hands with soap after being in public, if being in public is permissible. If invited to supper I may eat lobster even though the Torah forbids it. Research indicated lobster is nutritious. I do not need to follow antiquated legal precepts based on superstition.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

The fact is the distinction between clean and unclean animals/meat was evident before Moses as Noah knew the difference. Moses simply codified it into law. Since you believe the Mosaic law regarding dietary prohibition is irrelevant today and believers can eat any kind of meat they want to, how does that square with your concomitant belief that not one jot or tittle shall disappear until heaven and earth pass away? Under your belief, the dietary law has disappeared - despite heaven and earth still existing. Problematic for you.
Secondly you quote Acts 15:19-20 but you fail to cite v.21. Why is that as v.21 itself gives the specific reason for the short list of prohibitions in vs.19-20? V.21 states that Moses (the law of Moses) is preached and read in every synagogue and city every Sabbath. This means that the short list mentioned in v.20 which was intentionally kept short in order to not make it difficult for the gentiles to become converted.
It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
As the converted gentiles to the faith were present at the synagogues every Sabbath where Moses was preached, they would then understand the depth and breadth of the whole law as it applies to them, lest it overwhelm them initially and "make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."
Scripture interprets scripture. When the specific reason is given in the passage itself, it is folly for us to keep searching for a reason.

Your list of objections do not bear up to scrutiny and show me that you have not really studied this subject in depth. I strongly suggest you do so as I'll just use your first citation as an example of your error. You claimed that all meats are clean based on Matt 15:11,17. Have you not read v.2 where the Pharisees ask Jesus "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied in v.3 “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking their tradition (oral law/Talmud) - NOT - the command of God. Big difference! No where in the entirety of the Mosaic law is there a command that one must wash hands before eating. Jesus thus chastises them for submitting to their own oral law rather than obeying the written law of God. Jesus' disciples were not guilty of anything in the written law. This passage has nothing at all to do with "all meats are clean" as you allege but rather with hand washing which is not even mentioned in the law.

Regarding Colossians 2, you have neglected to address the fact that v.17 states that "these things" referring to feast days, new moon days, Sabbath days in v.17 ARE A SHADOW of things to come. If they "point to Christ" as you allege, why are they not WERE A SHADOW of things to come. Has Christ not already come?? Your explanation remains problematic.

1. I believe you may have misread what I said previously brother, to state it again. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of it be fuliflled(completed/finished/done away, etc), Christ says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to pass away without the rest. Knowing this we can clearly see that the heavens and earth still standing is not a testament to the Law of Moses still being in place but rather it is a testament that all of the Law was finished, every Jot and tittle. No Problems, and no contradiction in scripture. Well brother I stopped there because it was not important to the case, if you would like we can read just a little further and get the full meaning of the verse that you have now brought up:
Acts 15
(the sentence that was given was so that they would not trouble the New gentiles turned to God with)
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

(There are those in every city that preach Moses, it does not say that there are christians in every city preaching the commands of God, but rather it says there are those who preach Moses)
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

(The most important thing to note in this next verse is that the Apostles, elders, and even the whole Church decide to send men out of their own to preach. This is Because there are those preaching Moses in every city trying to constrain people to keep the Law of Moses, which was the reason for this meeting in the first place(verse 1-2, 5-6), the message of those being sent out by the Church of God is to counter the Message of Adherence to the Mosaic law preached in every city the command of God to no longer live under that Yoke of Bondage(verse 10) )
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

(Not only were men sent out to counter the Message of Adherence to the Mosaic Law, but also letters were written for this purpose)
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.


24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


Now we can go through the whole chapter verse by verse if you would like brother.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2.
Matt 15- Says that what goes into a man does not defile him(Matt 15:11,17) only that which comes out(Matt 15:11,18,19,20) he spoke in parables, that were shut up in their understanding to the people( Matt 15:15,16), so as not to break the law none understood what he spoke(Matt 15:15,16,10).


Mark 7- Any food/Meat that goes into a man does not defile him(Mark 7:15,18-19) only that which comes out defiles a man(Mark 7:15,20-23) he spoke in Parables that were shut up in their understanding to people(Mark 7:18-19) none understood what he spoke.

Christ did three things here.
First we need to look at what was the original subject brought up by the Pharisees(when they first addressed Christ and his Apostles), two things were being spoken of Defilement and the tradition of eating with unwashed hands. Two things, not just one.


A. This is the portion where he shows that the tradition was fulfilled in New testament law.

Matt 15:20,15,16
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mark 7:6-9,13,17-18
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;



B. This is the Portion that shows that the Mosaic commandment(dietary law) was fulfilled in New Testament law.


Matt 15:11,17
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?



Mark 7:15,18-19
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Meats in the greek is:
Strongs 1033
Broma
meat, food.

From the base of bibrosko; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law -- meat, victuals.

C. This is the portion that defines what defiles a man in New testament Law.

Matt 15:11,18-19
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Mark 7:15,20-23
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.



The original issue was eating with unwashed hands but also defilement. Portion A speaks of the tradition(eating with unwashed hands). But after answering this first issue Christ went beyond the first part of the discussion discussion(tradition of defilement by unwashed hands) and said that not only was the tradition(eating with unwashed hands defiling a man) done but also was the Law that said food in general could defile a man(Mosaic Dietary law). Then showing that the reason for this was that food only comes out to drought when purged by the belly and cannot enter into a man's heart. Thirdly(C) he showed that in the New law God would judge men, not by what we ate(from without), but by what came out from within us. From within our heart comes defilement. Can unclean meat enter into our hearts? Can unclean meat proceed out from our heart? No it cannot.

3. Christ came and fulfilled the need to keep those feast days physically since now we can clearly see through Christ their True fulfillment in anti-type(as I showed in the Example of the wave sheaf offerings and the 2 living harvests to come in the end). Christ opened the understanding of his followers by the Spirit he poured out upon us, now that veil of Moses that was upon has been taken out of the way so that we can see(though not yet perfectly) the true purpose of what of commanded in the Law, the true anti-typical purpose. So you see brother the shadow was there to point to Christ who after coming revealed the true meaning of the Shadow in what will come in it's anti-type in these Last days.

God bless brother

 

[dqhall]

1. I believe you may have misread what I said previously brother, to state it again. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of it be fuliflled(completed/finished/done away, etc), Christ says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to pass away without the rest. Knowing this we can clearly see that the heavens and earth still standing is not a testament to the Law of Moses still being in place but rather it is a testament that all of the Law was finished, every Jot and tittle.

In 1945 the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered by a Bedouin goat herder in a cave at Qumran. Archaeologists later found more scrolls in other caves. These included the Torah (Pentateuch). The laws in Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc. were written in Hebrew by a religious sect living at Qumran within sight of the Dead Sea. These parchment and papyrus scrolls dated from the second century BC to the time of the Jewish rebellion c. 66-70 AD. Not one pen stroke was gone, jot or title was missing.

A diligent person might find some goodness in laws against murder, adultery, stealing and false witness. The same diligent person may disregard making animal sacrifices, incense offerings, stoning people and numerous other laws. The law required Jewish males should go to the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread (Passover) for seven days each year (Exodus 23:14–17). That was an expensive law. Christ came to set us free from this imperfect law.

 

[Oldmantook]

Sometimes science and common sense let us know not to eat bats and to wash our hands with soap after being in public, if being in public is permissible. If invited to supper I may eat lobster even though the Torah forbids it. Research indicated lobster is nutritious. I do not need to follow antiquated legal precepts based on superstition.

Your choice if you want to disregard Scripture.

 

[Oldmantook]

I believe you may have misread what I said previously brother, to state it again. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of it be fuliflled(completed/finished/done away, etc), Christ says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to pass away without the rest. Knowing this we can clearly see that the heavens and earth still standing is not a testament to the Law of Moses still being in place but rather it is a testament that all of the Law was finished, every Jot and tittle. No Problems, and no contradiction in scripture. Well brother I stopped there because it was not important to the case, if you would like we can read just a little further and get the full meaning of the verse that you have now brought up:

Let's quote the entire verse shall we to see what it says.
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." Lk 16:17
The verse does not say the law was finished. It simply says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away then the law to pass away. Conclusion: it is extremely difficult for the law to pass away as it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away. Golden rule of hermeneutics: when the plain meaning of the verse makes sense; seek no other sense.
We have a second witness in Matt 5:19
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus himself condemns those who teach that these commands (law) are to be set aside. On the other hand whoever practices and teaches these command will be called great....
Therefore I gotta side with what Jesus stated. I fall into the latter category. Do you really wish to be identified with the former category?

(The most important thing to note in this next verse is that the Apostles, elders, and even the whole Church decide to send men out of their own to preach. This is Because there are those preaching Moses in every city trying to constrain people to keep the Law of Moses, which was the reason for this meeting in the first place(verse 1-2, 5-6), the message of those being sent out by the Church of God is to counter the Message of Adherence to the Mosaic law preached in every city the command of God to no longer live under that Yoke of Bondage(verse 10) )

If you read Acts you will note that sending out to preach was not the norm. Preaching in the synagogue every Sabbath was the norm. Scripture references please to back your claim? Opinion must always be backed by Scripture. I can supply mine.
Acts 17:17
So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.

Acts 13
14) but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. (15) After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.”
(16) So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: “Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. …
(26) “Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. …
(38) Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, (39) and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. …
(43) And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. (44) The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. (45) But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. (46) And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. (47) For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'”
(48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (49) And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. (50) But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Acts 14:1-2
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. (2) And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” (4) And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

The original issue was eating with unwashed hands but also defilement. Portion A speaks of the tradition(eating with unwashed hands). But after answering this first issue Christ went beyond the first part of the discussion discussion(tradition of defilement by unwashed hands) and said that not only was the tradition(eating with unwashed hands defiling a man) done but also was the Law that said food in general could defile a man(Mosaic Dietary law). Then showing that the reason for this was that food only comes out to drought when purged by the belly and cannot enter into a man's heart. Thirdly(C) he showed that in the New law God would judge men, not by what we ate(from without), but by what came out from within us. From within our heart comes defilement. Can unclean meat enter into our hearts? Can unclean meat proceed out from our heart? No it cannot.

Sorry but your conclusion is unwarranted. Where is there reference to the dietary law in this entire passage? You have inserted your inference into the text. What does the text actually state? What is the subject? Answer: the tradition of the elders (oral law) who forbid eating with unwashed hands in Mk 7:5. No such prohibition exists in the entire law of Moses. That is precisely why Jesus rebuked them saying that they "invalidate the word of God with your tradition" v. 13.
Jesus proceeds to tell them that nothing from the outside (germs as a result of unwashed hands) defiles a man. Jesus confirms this in v.19 where he states that it goes into the stomach then expelled out of the body. All food - whether clean or unclean goes into the stomach and out of the body so Jesus cannot have been making a reference to the dietary law. If Jesus were in fact referring to unclean food now being declared clean, what in the world does that have to do with the washing of hands which is the subject of this passage in the first place? All foods would be clean whether or not one washes their hands. Thus Jesus addressed a hygienic issue brought up by the Pharisees according their tradition - NOT a dietary issue according to the command of God. Thus I believe you have taken this passage out of context by conflating the two.

 

[dqhall]

Your choice if you want to disregard Scripture.

Why did the teachers of the Torah law (scripture) demand Jesus’ execution?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Why did the teachers of the Torah law (scripture) demand Jesus’ execution?

For many reasons...He made Himself equal with The Father, He usurped their authority, etc

 

[dqhall]

For many reasons...He made Himself equal with The Father, He usurped their authority, etc

They were sons of wickedness, full of deceit, false accusation and murderous intent.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Let's quote the entire verse shall we to see what it says.
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." Lk 16:17
The verse does not say the law was finished. It simply says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away then the law to pass away. Conclusion: it is extremely difficult for the law to pass away as it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away. Golden rule of hermeneutics: when the plain meaning of the verse makes sense; seek no other sense.
We have a second witness in Matt 5:19
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus himself condemns those who teach that these commands (law) are to be set aside. On the other hand whoever practices and teaches these command will be called great....
Therefore I gotta side with what Jesus stated. I fall into the latter category. Do you really wish to be identified with the former category?


If you read Acts you will note that sending out to preach was not the norm. Preaching in the synagogue every Sabbath was the norm. Scripture references please to back your claim? Opinion must always be backed by Scripture. I can supply mine.
Acts 17:17
So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.

Acts 13
14) but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. (15) After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.”
(16) So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: “Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. …
(26) “Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. …
(38) Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, (39) and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. …
(43) And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. (44) The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. (45) But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. (46) And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. (47) For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'”
(48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (49) And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. (50) But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Acts 14:1-2
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. (2) And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, (3) explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” (4) And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.


Sorry but your conclusion is unwarranted. Where is there reference to the dietary law in this entire passage? You have inserted your inference into the text. What does the text actually state? What is the subject? Answer: the tradition of the elders (oral law) who forbid eating with unwashed hands in Mk 7:5. No such prohibition exists in the entire law of Moses. That is precisely why Jesus rebuked them saying that they "invalidate the word of God with your tradition" v. 13.
Jesus proceeds to tell them that nothing from the outside (germs as a result of unwashed hands) defiles a man. Jesus confirms this in v.19 where he states that it goes into the stomach then expelled out of the body. All food - whether clean or unclean goes into the stomach and out of the body so Jesus cannot have been making a reference to the dietary law. If Jesus were in fact referring to unclean food now being declared clean, what in the world does that have to do with the washing of hands which is the subject of this passage in the first place? All foods would be clean whether or not one washes their hands. Thus Jesus addressed a hygienic issue brought up by the Pharisees according their tradition - NOT a dietary issue according to the command of God. Thus I believe you have taken this passage out of context by conflating the two.

Lets quote the entire verse:
Easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the law to fail,
Luke 16:
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

One tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. In saying till heaven and earth pass he is speaking the same way as above, he is saying it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to be fulfilled without the rest. This is a very a clear, precise and basic reading of the text which yields the truth of the texts quoted. I am sorry you do not see this brother.
Matt 5:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Church was all together on one accord, they had their own ministers to teach the doctrine of Christ and the Law of Christ why else were they commanded time and time again to Appoint their own teachers of the Law of Christ in every place? Their own bishops and deacons and pastors? It is because, though they would meet in synagogues to try and reach the Jews, the Jews did not want to hear the truth. Go back and read for yourself how many times they were cast out of the Synagogues, and go back and read how they set up their own places to worship and Gather on the Sabbath day, or how they would meet in houses to discuss the Gospel and teach his word. They sent out ministers of their own in Acts 15 to counter the false doctrine being preached by the Jews, which as stated multiple times in the chapter was the Doctrine that said it was nesecary that we keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised. This doctrine being preached by the Jews was as stated in the Chapter not a command of them, but rather it is completely against what they and Christ preached.

They preached freedom from the law of Moses
Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 14: 1-2 show again how the Jews were subverting the souls of those to whom freedom of the law was being preached.

Acts 17 from the verses you quoted read that it was said that it was HIS custom to go in and preach in the synagogue on the Sabbath day, then read further and see that the Law of Christ was not Accepted so he left to preach to the gentiles.

It is completely warranted brother, your just failing to see that the issue was both defilement by eating with unwashed hands but also defilement in general by eating any kind of food(broma). I laid it clearly for you, but if you cannot see then I don't believe showing it to you in a different way will help your eyes to be opened.

I read and showed it all in it's context brother, then I showed the conclusion of the whole matter step by step. I am sorry if it was not enough to open your eyes to the truth.

God bless and Guide you to the truth and light of his word brother

 

[Oldmantook]

Why did the teachers of the Torah law (scripture) demand Jesus’ execution?

Because He made himself out to be God and they refused to recognize his being the Messiah.

 

[Oldmantook]

Lets quote the entire verse:
Easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the law to fail,
Luke 16:
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

One tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. In saying till heaven and earth pass he is speaking the same way as above, he is saying it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to be fulfilled without the rest. This is a very a clear, precise and basic reading of the text which yields the truth of the texts quoted. I am sorry you do not see this brother.
Matt 5:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Church was all together on one accord, they had their own ministers to teach the doctrine of Christ and the Law of Christ why else were they commanded time and time again to Appoint their own teachers of the Law of Christ in every place? Their own bishops and deacons and pastors? It is because, though they would meet in synagogues to try and reach the Jews, the Jews did not want to hear the truth. Go back and read for yourself how many times they were cast out of the Synagogues, and go back and read how they set up their own places to worship and Gather on the Sabbath day, or how they would meet in houses to discuss the Gospel and teach his word. They sent out ministers of their own in Acts 15 to counter the false doctrine being preached by the Jews, which as stated multiple times in the chapter was the Doctrine that said it was nesecary that we keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised. This doctrine being preached by the Jews was as stated in the Chapter not a command of them, but rather it is completely against what they and Christ preached.

They preached freedom from the law of Moses
Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 14: 1-2 show again how the Jews were subverting the souls of those to whom freedom of the law was being preached.

Acts 17 from the verses you quoted read that it was said that it was HIS custom to go in and preach in the synagogue on the Sabbath day, then read further and see that the Law of Christ was not Accepted so he left to preach to the gentiles.

It is completely warranted brother, your just failing to see that the issue was both defilement by eating with unwashed hands but also defilement in general by eating any kind of food(broma). I laid it clearly for you, but if you cannot see then I don't believe showing it to you in a different way will help your eyes to be opened.

I read and showed it all in it's context brother, then I showed the conclusion of the whole matter step by step. I am sorry if it was not enough to open your eyes to the truth.

God bless and Guide you to the truth and light of his word brother

I see we will have to agree to disagree about the heaven and earth passage. Does not "til" mean "until?" Thus "when" heaven and earth then shall the law pass away.
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
The imperative word here is ALL which includes heaven and earth passing away as described in Revelation.
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. Rev 21:1
Since this event described in Rev 21:1 has not yet occurred, the law still exists in its entirety.

Reread the verses I supplied. They clearly state that every Sabbath the gentiles gathered at the synagogues to hear the law preached. That of course does not mean that they also met elsewhere in houses for example but what do you suppose they discussed? Would it not be the law that they learned from synagogue?

It seems to me that based upon your replies, you conflate the written law which Jesus nor none of the apostles disobeyed, with the oral law (traditions of men) that Jesus always castigated the Jewish leaders for. The Jews were deluded by following their rabbinical tradition instead of following the written law as they added or subtracted from the written law which was obviously great error. Ironically, we in the church teach the same today. We do not distinguish between the written and oral law and lump them in together as being one and the same thing. Thus the church has disregarded the law teaching that it no longer applies to us. You err in alleging that they preached freedom from the law of Moses. Jesus and especially Paul preached freedom from rabbinical law. The false doctrine being preached by the Jews was the Talmud, the oral law, the traditions of men, the rabbinical law - not the written law of Moses. Paul never preached against the written law; instead he commended it.
Romans 7
7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good.
22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.
25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

In this one chapter Paul extols the law; not dismisses it. He sums up his view by declaring that he still serves the law of God. Since the Apostle Paul admitted to serving the law of God, are we in any position to not do likewise?

Finally, the law never justified anyone per Rom 3:20. The law is a tutor that points to Jesus as its fulfillment. Prior to his conversion, Paul observed the letter of the law without realizing that the law pointed to the Savior. But even after coming to saving faith, he wrote that he still served the law of God. Your view is that faith nullifies the law. Scripture states the exact opposite.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Thank you for the discussion but my participation ends here as we agree to disagree. In summary, I think your view "throws the baby out with the bath water" whereas my belief views the law as necessary for establish repentance which leads to saving faith. One cannot have saving faith unless one knows what to repent of since the law serves as a tutor and instructs as to what is sin and is offensive to God. Without the law there can be no repentance. Once we are saved, we are able to observe the letter of the law but much more importantly, we are now able to carry out the spirit of the law as what was formerly written on tablets of stone are now written upon our hearts.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

I see we will have to agree to disagree about the heaven and earth passage. Does not "til" mean "until?" Thus "when" heaven and earth then shall the law pass away.
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
The imperative word here is ALL which includes heaven and earth passing away as described in Revelation.
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. Rev 21:1
Since this event described in Rev 21:1 has not yet occurred, the law still exists in its entirety.

Reread the verses I supplied. They clearly state that every Sabbath the gentiles gathered at the synagogues to hear the law preached. That of course does not mean that they also met elsewhere in houses for example but what do you suppose they discussed? Would it not be the law that they learned from synagogue?

It seems to me that based upon your replies, you conflate the written law which Jesus nor none of the apostles disobeyed, with the oral law (traditions of men) that Jesus always castigated the Jewish leaders for. The Jews were deluded by following their rabbinical tradition instead of following the written law as they added or subtracted from the written law which was obviously great error. Ironically, we in the church teach the same today. We do not distinguish between the written and oral law and lump them in together as being one and the same thing. Thus the church has disregarded the law teaching that it no longer applies to us. You err in alleging that they preached freedom from the law of Moses. Jesus and especially Paul preached freedom from rabbinical law. The false doctrine being preached by the Jews was the Talmud, the oral law, the traditions of men, the rabbinical law - not the written law of Moses. Paul never preached against the written law; instead he commended it.
Romans 7
7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good.
22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.
25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

In this one chapter Paul extols the law; not dismisses it. He sums up his view by declaring that he still serves the law of God. Since the Apostle Paul admitted to serving the law of God, are we in any position to not do likewise?

Finally, the law never justified anyone per Rom 3:20. The law is a tutor that points to Jesus as its fulfillment. Prior to his conversion, Paul observed the letter of the law without realizing that the law pointed to the Savior. But even after coming to saving faith, he wrote that he still served the law of God. Your view is that faith nullifies the law. Scripture states the exact opposite.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Thank you for the discussion but my participation ends here as we agree to disagree. In summary, I think your view "throws the baby out with the bath water" whereas my belief views the law as necessary for establish repentance which leads to saving faith. One cannot have saving faith unless one knows what to repent of since the law serves as a tutor and instructs as to what is sin and is offensive to God. Without the law there can be no repentance. Once we are saved, we are able to observe the letter of the law but much more importantly, we are now able to carry out the spirit of the law as what was formerly written on tablets of stone are now written upon our hearts.

I am sorry you cannot accept the truth brother, I will send you a full account of my beliefs on this in the hopes that you can come to see the truth by looking at the whole counsel of God and not simply select verses. Of course you don't have to read it but Hopefully it will help you.

God bless you Brother

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They were sons of wickedness, full of deceit, false accusation and murderous intent.

yes and? They broke almost every commandment against Yeshua...

 

[Oldmantook]

I am sorry you cannot accept the truth brother, I will send you a full account of my beliefs on this in the hopes that you can come to see the truth by looking at the whole counsel of God and not simply select verses. Of course you don't have to read it but Hopefully it will help you.

God bless you Brother

One man's truth is another man's falsehood. I can't accept your view as all doctrine must take into account those scriptures that don't appear to support one's own view. I already pointed out to you that Paul himself declared that he serves the law in Rom 7:25. I think it can't be much clearer than that. That verse is problematic for your view. A hermeneutical principle requires us to interpret more obscure verses in light of the clear ones. It seems to be that you do it in reverse which is why we disagree.

 

[dqhall]

One man's truth is another man's falsehood. I can't accept your view as all doctrine must take into account those scriptures that don't appear to support one's own view. I already pointed out to you that Paul himself declared that he serves the law in Rom 7:25. I think it can't be much clearer than that. That verse is problematic for your view. A hermeneutical principle requires us to interpret more obscure verses in light of the clear ones. It seems to be that you do it in reverse which is why we disagree.

I studied Christianity. In Acts 15 Paul went to meet Peter and the other apostles and argued the Gentile believers should not be made to bear the burden of the law. I believe it is not necessary for Gentiles to be circumcised, sacrifice animals, or do strict Sabbath observance to be saved. I choose to study the Gospels without converting to Judaism. I have no inheritance in Israel.