• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Top Ten Problems with Darwinian Evolution

CabVet

Question everything
Dec 7, 2011
11,738
176
Los Altos, CA
✟35,902.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Canidae family, Cabvet. Foxes are in the Canid genera. I don't go much for the "scientific" breakdown of all the species.

You don't learn, do you? Two things: one, that is not what you said in the message I responded to, and two, foxes are not in "Canid genera" (I am not even sure what that means since all foxes are in the same genus), they are in the genus Vixen.

Lastly, if you don't go much for the scientific break down of all the species, you should avoid making comments like these:

Canis lupus familiaris a form of a grey wolf. I think science says the same thing essentially about Foxes, Dingo's, domestic Dogs, and wolves. They are all in the same clade they call it.
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟28,767.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

I will continue to use "kind" that the bible uses then.

Lasthero asked me what creationists think. They think all dogs came from one wolf kind off the ark. That would probably include foxes and coyotes.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I'm not the one raising a fist at God.
No one is "raising a fist" at God. We are questioning your misguided faith in a mistaken interpretation of scripture. Yours, not God's.
1. No where in scripture does it claim there were no mountains before the flood. In fact, scripture refers to the "ancient mountains."
Deuteronomy 33:15 "Let the hills and ancient mountains produce their best fruit."

2. No where in scripture does it claim there was any volcanic activity during the flood.

You are adding to what scripture says, in the absense of any supporting evidence, just to prop up your fallible dogma.

Some was frozen in the ice age and that created land bridges in some places as the ocean levels were a bit lower then. As well as frozen ice.
What ice age? Scripture makes no mention of any ice age.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

With some people, a desire to stick to your beliefs, outweighs any desire to learn.

That is obviously quite common in this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I will continue to use "kind" that the bible uses then.

Lasthero asked me what creationists think. They think all dogs came from one wolf kind off the ark. That would probably include foxes and coyotes.

What about jackals and thylacines?
 
Upvote 0

lasthero

Newbie
Jul 30, 2013
11,421
5,795
✟236,977.00
Faith
Seeker
Lasthero asked me what creationists think. They think all dogs came from one wolf kind off the ark. That would probably include foxes and coyotes.

And again, I'm asking if you think this all happened in 4400 years? Because, you're talking about, likely, thousands of different species, and saying they came from a pair of only two. Just two. That's a lot of variation in an incredibly short amount of time.
 
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens

Yes, for people who don't accept evolution, they're prepared to turbocharge it when it suits their fairy story.....
 
Upvote 0

CabVet

Question everything
Dec 7, 2011
11,738
176
Los Altos, CA
✟35,902.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I will continue to use "kind" that the bible uses then.

Yet you have no definition for it.

Lasthero asked me what creationists think. They think all dogs came from one wolf kind off the ark. That would probably include foxes and coyotes.

You are the first creationist I have ever heard saying that. Most that I know would say that genera were in the ark, since somehow they erroneously equate that to kind.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Yet you have no definition for it.



You are the first creationist I have ever heard saying that. Most that I know would say that genera were in the ark, since somehow they erroneously equate that to kind.

Dogs belong to the Kind that you would call Canidae. Cat's Felidae, etc. What an evolutionist would call Family.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
Dogs belong to the Kind that you would call Canidae. Cat's Felidae, etc. What an evolutionist would call Family.

And yet we are told that bacteria produce bacteria, but bacteria is a Kingdom, for crying out loud. There is no alignment with the Linnaean Family for kinds anywhere. You guys are all over the board. One moment you calling a Genus a kind, and a Kingdom the next. The only criteria that creationists seem to have is if they can describe two species with the same name. Creationist kinds really are nothing more than a name game.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

So RNA can copy itself, without DNA and Protiens, RNA by itself is completely useless in complex life. As is DNA by itself, as are protiens by itself.

Even the simplest form of life, bacteria, consist of at least a single chromosone, DNA/RNA/Protien. Without all 3 at once no life exists at all. Copy all the RNA you want, you'll never make life with them by themselves. Copy all the protiens you want, you will never make life with them by themselves. Copy all the DNA you want, you will never make life with them by themselves. And when you take something that already exists and copy it, big deal, we can clone sheep from existing sheep. Create it from that rock, then we'll discuss evolution. Till then you got nothing.

As a matter of fact you should be able to just throw in protons, neutrons and electrons and have life come about shouldn't you? I mean that is what everything is made up of isn't it?

Songbirds, really, that the best you got? So apes used to build nests? I thought we came from apes not songbirds.

Who says man was substantially hairier in the past? An artist? The oldest man specimen you have has hair no more dense than ours. Artists just like to draw man with more hair the older they claim the bones are. You got zilch for actual data, just suppositions. Maybe you should do some research.

What made every animal evolve at once? The animals we see today can not be traced back any further than modern man. Those with what you like to call Neandrethal man were merely a different appearance of the human kind. Same as we see with dogs, cats, etc. None of the human kind, cat kind, canine kind, etc. can be traced back further than the last global destruction.

The destruction that extincted the dino. Meteor, comet, whatever; and the Earth became desolate and waste, and darkness covered the surface of the deep. I knew this long ago. Then the animals with man and man himself was created. Exactly what we observe except in a few rare cases of kind that survuved the cataclysm, shark, crocodile, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

No, bacteria is a kind, for crying out loud. That is why they may live inside us in a symbiotic relationship, or even kill us, because they are their own kind, not a far distant relative. Get a grip on reality. Kingdom is no more than a name game, as is species, family, phylum. All name games. Cats have always been feline as far back as you can trace them, nothing more than changes of appearance just like we have caused in a few generations. Yet they are not new kinds, they are still feline and always will be. Fish are their own kind, not a distant relative. Apes are their own kind, not a distant relative. Virus are their own kind, not a distant relative.
 
Upvote 0

EternalDragon

Counselor
Jul 31, 2013
5,757
26
✟28,767.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

Exactly! Of the larger animals it isn't like there are a huge number of variations.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Exactly! Of the larger animals it isn't like there are a huge number of variations.


Yes, easier for simpler life to change appearance, doesn't do much good to "evolve" a new leg shape without all the rest. Dogs and cats show how change when made is total, over the entire body. Until then there are merely slight variations within a kind, until nature or mankind interferes.
 
Upvote 0

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟23,498.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
So RNA can copy itself, without DNA and Protiens, RNA by itself is completely useless in complex life.
We're not talking about complex life yet. No one except creationists says that life started as complex.

Copy all the RNA you want, you'll never make life with them by themselves. Copy all the protiens you want, you will never make life with them by themselves. Copy all the DNA you want, you will never make life with them by themselves.
For one thing, define "life". For another, please educate yourself about what the science of abiogenesis actually says. (I.e. that proteins and DNA can be invented by RNA-based organisms!) I suggest cdk007's abiogenesis videos. First two in the Origins series.

And besides, your original "problem" was the chicken or egg problem of DNA and protein, the general solution of which is a molecule that could have preceded both that can sustain all the basic functions of life on its own. Given its functions in modern cells, RNA is the obvious candidate. It appears capable of doing all the work, and the comment about RNA polymerase ribozymes was offered in support of that claim.

(As to how the transition to a DNA-RNA-protein world was made - well, that's a matter of some debate in the abiogenesis community. For example, it's not clear how "accidental" or how chemically inevitable the particular genetic code we have was. The origin of the genetic code video outlines one possible scenario for the invention of proteins.)

And when you take something that already exists and copy it, big deal, we can clone sheep from existing sheep. Create it from that rock, then we'll discuss evolution. Till then you got nothing.
If I create life from a rock, we're not discussing evolution. Evolution is a theory of how life changes.

As a matter of fact you should be able to just throw in protons, neutrons and electrons and have life come about shouldn't you? I mean that is what everything is made up of isn't it?
The fact that everything is made of them should give you a clue as to why it's not so simple as that... Besides, I don't see what bearing the ability of human beings to create life has on anything. We can't (yet) make humans regrow their legs, yet regrowing legs is plainly a perfectly natural phenomenon. Newts do it no problem.

Songbirds, really, that the best you got?
Let's recap why I mentioned songbirds before we roll over laughing. You argued, in your own exact words, that
Songbirds pretty solidly refute that reasoning. Arboreal/forest dwelling? Yes, many of them are. Offspring immediately capable of grasping the parent or flight? Not by a long shot. All hatchling songbird are capable of is begging for food.

So apes used to build nests? I thought we came from apes not songbirds.
So... yeah. This is completely irrelevant to what I actually said.

And by the way, apes still build nests. They sleep in them at night.

Who says man was substantially hairier in the past?
Phylogenetic bracketing.

Since all the evidence from comparative anatomy and genetics points to us coming from ape ancestors, and since all apes except us are really hairy, the most parsimonious view is that we came from hairy ancestors.

An artist? The oldest man specimen you have has hair no more dense than ours. Artists just like to draw man with more hair the older they claim the bones are. You got zilch for actual data, just suppositions.
It is called inferences. You should learn how to make them.

Maybe you should do some research.
Says the guy who just said all arboreal species have precocial young.

What made every animal evolve at once?
I don't even know what you're asking here. Things that make imperfect copies of themselves evolve. It's inevitable. It never stops. It happens everywhere at once.

The animals we see today can not be traced back any further than modern man.
Aw, and here I thought coelacanths were "unchanged" since the Cretaceous!

Earth history is not your strong suit, is it? Here's the GSA geologic time scale to help. The KT extinction is dated to 66 million years ago, give or take.

Here's an awesome database of what was found in the fossil record when. So let's peruse it.

Felidae: 30-33 million years.
Canidae: 40-46 million years.
Genus Homo: 2.5 million years (paleodb has too low time resolution, so this one's from Wikipedia)
"Modern man", which, based on what you said, I'll take to be the H. sapiens/neanderthalensis lineage: a few hundred thousand years.

Notice how none of these dates are anywhere near the KT extinction? Earth had thriving ecosystems full of animals that weren't any of these "kinds" in the time between, and went extinct long ago. What's the story for that?

Note also that yes, according to your "definition" of a kind, the very examples you mentioned did come long before modern man.

Exactly what we observe except in a few rare cases of kind that survuved the cataclysm, shark, crocodile, etc.
So let me get this straight: a "kind" is basically a group that science says originated after the KT extinction.

Mammals survived the KT. Birds did. Lizards did. Turtles. Frogs and salamanders. Fish of various kinds. Octopuses and squid. Cockles and mussels. Sea urchins and starfish. Countless kinds of snails. Don't even get me started on the insects.

(FWIW, several shark families - which is where you drew the line with cats and dogs - originated well after the KT too. Tiger sharks, hammerheads and threshers all belong to such families. Cherry picking much?)
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
No, bacteria is a kind, for crying out loud.
You had just claimed "Kinds" were similar to the family taxon.


That is why they may live inside us in a symbiotic relationship, or even kill us, because they are their own kind, not a far distant relative.
Non sequiter. Your facts are uncoordinated. Are you claiming that a parasitic species can not parasitize another species of its own "kind?' I want your answer before I give you numerous examples.


Get a grip on reality.
That's rich, coming from a creationist!


Kingdom is no more than a name game, as is species, family, phylum. All name games.
True, everything above "species" is rather arbitrary. "Kinds," on the other hand, should not be. They should be obvious, since they were all recently created separately. Why do creationists have such a hard time coming up with a inclusive list of all "kinds," do you think?


Are Mammals a "kind" then? Are primates a "kind?" Why not?
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
No, bacteria is a kind, for crying out loud.

Based on what critieria?

That is why they may live inside us in a symbiotic relationship, or even kill us, because they are their own kind, not a far distant relative.

Humans can kill other humans, and we live for 9 months inside another human being. Does that make humans a different kind from other humans?

Kingdom is no more than a name game, as is species, family, phylum. All name games. Cats have always been feline . . .

Feline is a Genus, so you are playing name games again.

Yet they are not new kinds, they are still feline and always will be. Fish are their own kind, not a distant relative. Apes are their own kind, not a distant relative. Virus are their own kind, not a distant relative.

Yes, just as it should be if evolution is true. You don't evolve out of your ancestry. How many times has this been explained?

Also, the feline group has only been around since the 1700's when Linnaeus created the group.
 
Upvote 0