Top Ten Problems with Darwinian Evolution

RedRover · Aug 14, 2013

Skaloop said:
And perhaps a future method of restoring metabolic function

The problem is that metabolic function does not stop whey you cut off the oxygen supply. That is why the cure is to pack the patient in ice to shut down the metabolic function and then you increase the chance they can be revived. There are animals that hibernate and even take on the appearance of being dead for long periods of time, only to come back to life when the conditions for life are right again. Like the lung fish that can slow its metabolism to as little as 1/60 of the normal metabolic rate.

Skaloop · Aug 14, 2013

bhsmte said:
If a cell has metabolic function, its not dead.

That's what I meant (although I realize it was not written clearly), that after metabolic function stops, there may be a brief window before the cell degrades beyond saving, where metabolic function can be re-initiated. Not necessarily, but possibly dependent upon technological/medical advances.

RedRover · Aug 14, 2013

bhsmte said:
What is the initiator of all this; no oxygen.

Yes but the cell does not die, the damage to the cell comes when the oxygen is restored.

Skaloop · Aug 14, 2013

RedRover said:
The problem is that metabolic function does not stop whey you cut off the oxygen supply. That is why the cure is to pack the patient in ice to shut down the metabolic function and then you increase the chance they can be revived. There are animals that hibernate and even take on the appearance of being dead for long periods of time, only to come back to life when the conditions for life are right again. Like the lung fish that can slow its metabolism to as little as 1/60 of the normal metabolic rate.

Yeah, I know. But there is a point when metabolic function stops. There may be a period after that during which it can be re-started. Not now, and it's just speculation; I'm not saying it can be done.

RedRover · Aug 14, 2013

Skaloop said:
Yeah, I know. But there is a point when metabolic function stops.

There is no off switch. The cell keeps making enzymes to break down the oxygen. The cell gets filled up and there is no more room.

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How are mitochondria used in cellular respiration? The matrix is filled with water (H2O) and proteins (enzymes). Those proteins take food molecules and combine them with oxygen (O2). The mitochondria are the only place in the cell where oxygen can be combined with the food molecules. After the oxygen is added, the material can be digested. They are working organelles that keep the cell full of energy."

One theory is that the mitochondria got trapped in the cell. The cell then put it to work to break down the food into energy. Yet the body does not have full control and there is a problem if you do not feed the mitochondria a steady supply of oxygen. This does not seem to be a problem for other species that can go much longer without oxygen.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

Skaloop · Aug 14, 2013

RedRover said:
There is no off switch. The cell keeps making enzymes to break down the oxygen. The cell gets filled up and there is no more room. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

And what happens when there is no more room?

EternalDragon · Aug 14, 2013

Loudmouth said:
And yet we see new life coming about through nature all of the time. It is called biological reproduction. You should look into it.

New? Really? So it is not just copies then? Two genes per couple, everything inherited through birth?

Every time something is born it is a clone or copy of the pairing of the male and female genes that are passed on. Kinds making copies of their kinds.

bhsmte · Aug 15, 2013

RedRover said:
Yes but the cell does not die, the damage to the cell comes when the oxygen is restored.

And what happens to a cell when oxygen supply is cut off permanently?

RedRover · Aug 15, 2013

bhsmte said:
And what happens to a cell when oxygen supply is cut off permanently?

Nothing happens to them. At least not right away. They die when the oxygen is restored. You want me to give you a whole dump truck load of information to overcome your mistaken view that cells dies right away if they do not have a fresh supply of oxygen. Do you see how difficult it is to overcome one misconception? If you repeat a lie enough people believe that lie, even when there is no evidence to back it up. The inability to be able to resuscitate does not mean the cells are dead. At some point the body will start to decay but not in the first day or so. When you do an organ transplant they pack that organ in ice to keep it from decay. So they are able to keep those cells alive and re oxygenate them. If you pack the whole body in ice then in theory you should be able to revive them for up to five hours.

Naraoia · Aug 15, 2013

bhsmte said:
Sewing a head back on and having everything work, are two different things. We have yet to figure out a way to repair a severed spinal cord, but that day may come with modern medical science.

Regenerative medicine FTW.

RedRover said:
Some of the stem cell research people claim they can bridge the gap. For me I will believe it when you convince the insurance company to pay for it.

Hehe, if they're still on rat experiments, that will take a while.

Split Rock · Aug 15, 2013

Justatruthseeker said:
That's what kills me about evolutionists. They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible.

Within a timespan of 6,000 years, yes it is impossible. There is just too much variation.

Justatruthseeker said:
But then isn't it one animal out of the millions that evolves form, and then spreads that genetic makeup to the next generation through breeding, which would be a localized event, not worldwide? Or are they asking me to believe that when one evolves, all the rest worldwide spontaneously follow that same evolutionary path so they have a large enough genetic pool?

I can't believe you've been here as long as you have and still don't understand the basics of population genetics. I will tell you one more time. Read carefully, now...

Populations evolve, not individuals

Got it now?

bhsmte · Aug 15, 2013

RedRover said:
Nothing happens to them. At least not right away. They die when the oxygen is restored. You want me to give you a whole dump truck load of information to overcome your mistaken view that cells dies right away if they do not have a fresh supply of oxygen. Do you see how difficult it is to overcome one misconception? If you repeat a lie enough people believe that lie, even when there is no evidence to back it up. The inability to be able to resuscitate does not mean the cells are dead. At some point the body will start to decay but not in the first day or so. When you do an organ transplant they pack that organ in ice to keep it from decay. So they are able to keep those cells alive and re oxygenate them. If you pack the whole body in ice then in theory you should be able to revive them for up to five hours.

I never said cells die "right away" without oxygen. I stated, a cell will die without oxygen.

So you never answered my question; what happens to a cell if oxygen is cut off permanently and never restored?

Loudmouth · Aug 15, 2013

Justatruthseeker said:
Exactly, it stops when your brain quits working.

That is not always true. There are nerve bundles in the heart that also control heart rate, and these can misfire or not fire at all regardless of what the brain is doing.

Without the brain your body might lie there in a bed while they artificially keep your body alive, but it won't do it on its own without the brain.

No, you can have a beating heart that beats outside of the body. Here is a completely isolate rat heart beating outside of the body.

Langendorff heart - YouTube

They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible.

There are thousands of alleles for some genes. A single couple will only have 4 alleles for a given gene. We should see an obvious genetic bottleneck, but we don't.

bhsmte · Aug 15, 2013

Loudmouth said:
That is not always true. There are nerve bundles in the heart that also control heart rate, and these can misfire or not fire at all regardless of what the brain is doing.

No, you can have a beating heart that beats outside of the body. Here is a completely isolate rat heart beating outside of the body.

Langendorff heart - YouTube

There are thousands of alleles for some genes. A single couple will only have 4 alleles for a given gene. We should see an obvious genetic bottleneck, but we don't.

Yes, the heart has its own built in pace maker and it will beat at approx 50 beats per minute without any stimulation from the brain. The brain is required to regulate heart beat, during increased activity etc..

Loudmouth · Aug 15, 2013

RedRover said:
When you do an organ transplant they pack that organ in ice to keep it from decay.

That isn't true. The organs are sterile when they are removed, and they can be kept in a sterile environment. They are put on ice to reduce their metabolism which also reduces their need for oxygen so that they don't blow through their oxygen stores and become anaerobic. Also, vital organs are not as sensitive to fluctuations in oxygen as the brain is.

Loudmouth · Aug 15, 2013

EternalDragon said:
New? Really? So it is not just copies then?

Nope. Every offpspring is an organism never seen before by nature. Every human that is born carries a genome that has never existed before in the history of the Earth.

Two genes per couple, everything inherited through birth?

Plus mutations that make each child unique.

Every time something is born it is a clone or copy of the pairing of the male and female genes that are passed on. Kinds making copies of their kinds.

As I have shown you many times, every human is born with between 50 and 100 mutations.

Loudmouth · Aug 15, 2013

RedRover said:
Actually new research shows that the brain cells are not dead, they just can not be revived.

They certainly can't be revived by an electrical shock. Your Frankenstein claims are way off.

RedRover · Aug 15, 2013

bhsmte said:
I never said cells die "right away" without oxygen. I stated, a cell will die without oxygen.

Oh, ok, someone else must have said that then.

So you never answered my question; what happens to a cell if oxygen is cut off permanently and never restored?

I have not researched that because it is no longer a medical question is it is forensic science question. I am not quite sure what goes on in the morgue. The body begins to decompose, the flys lay larva. Bacteria starts to break down the body so that it can be recycled and become a new life form. Gas is produced. If someone were to drown at this point the body will usually float to the surface. I suppose there is a lot of stuff going on. In China they want to eat their food as close to alive as they can. They will buy a live fish and it is still moving when they throw it in the pan. When the fish quits moving then it is time to eat.

RedRover · Aug 15, 2013

Loudmouth said:
They certainly can't be revived by an electrical shock. Your Frankenstein claims are way off.

Your smart enough to figure out that the shock gets the heart beating again and the heart restores the oxygen to the cells. Otherwise I have no idea what point it is that you are trying to make.

florida2 · Aug 15, 2013

RedRover said:
They do use electric shocks to get a heart beating again to restore life.

Nope, not in the way you imagine.

Defibrillators (the shock machine in every hospital tv show) does NOT start the heart beating again when it has stopped ie. flatlined (known as asystole)

What the defibrillator does is correct the heart rhythm, for example during a heart attack. The defibrillator by its very name corrects fibrillation - erractic, fast and uncoordinated beating. Using electric shocks on someeone whose heart has stopped beating will have no effect. In that situation you have to use CPR compressions and inject medicine.

Sorry, but the cliche put forward by all the movies and tv shows of people having their hearts restarted by electric shocks is completely wrong.

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