Oh no, not the usual scare tactics to frighten people away from exposing the false teachings of the pentecostal/charismatic movement? It certainly won't work on me.
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What I have said to you IS the truth, and so your blood will not be on my hands when one day you might have to stand before Christ in the judgment and to answer Him why you taught others to disempower the Holy Spirit so that He could not work through you and those whom you teach the way He wanted to.
So I have warned you and therefore take no further responsibility for what you have chosen to believe.
Fake. Because it is put in the post for the wrong reasons. When tongues is recorded and used outside of the personal or church environment for personal or scientific analysis it loses it spiritual value.What about "Remasundu katapa singundo ramadika kibasa nabadatu quisaku."? Fake or real?
Those are your own tongues which you wrote down for us in an earlier post. You even interpreted it, "Jesus is high above all. He is the only Saviour in whom you might find forgiveness and eternal life." So one of those words, presumably "Remasundu", means "Jesus". And if it is a language then whenever that word is repeated it must also be "Jesus". Using the same method, especially where an interpretation is provided, a linguist can quickly compile a dictionary of a language. Yet every time linguists have analysed Pentecostal tongues they have always drawn a blank and come to the same conclusion - that modern tongues is not a language.
Cessationists are the type of false prophets and teachers that Jesus warned us about. You will find that when the AntiChrist appears, Cessationists will team up with him and be part of his false religious system.
As I said, the 50% statistic of nominal Christians in churches includes Charismatic churches; so it is no surprise that there is the false mixed in with the true. It is significant that the false often obscures the true and is more prominent.
Fake. Because it is put in the post for the wrong reasons. When tongues is recorded and used outside of the personal or church environment for personal or scientific analysis it loses it spiritual value.
That is why linguists draw a blank with tongues because what they are studying are meaningless words that have been taken out of their proper environment, like taking a fish out of water. Like the fish, the life goes out of it and all these linguists are studying are just dead words.
Are you sure that was Paul's definition of prophecy? It might be the modern Pentecostal's definition, but I doubt that it was Paul's. When he referred to prophets, he was more likely speaking about what he knew about prophecy from the Old Testament prophets, who were the preachers of their time.There are also a large proportion of respected commentators who take a different view and say that verse is referring to tongues and prophecy ceasing after the completion of the canon.
Prophecy is not preaching. Prophecy and teaching are listed as separate spiritual gifts. Prophecy is God supernaturally speaking precise words directly to a prophet who then passes them on to the people concerned.
We've been down this track before and debated it until we both have run out of things to say. Let's not go down that track again.There are even less verses that favour continuationism. Show us one verse that clearly states that all the gifts would continue throughout the church age. There is more to support cessationism than there is continuationism in scripture. And crucially, history supports cessationism.
God gave the church the gift of apostles - divinely appointed, miracle working, scripture writing, eye-witness apostles of Christ. Are they still with us today or did God withdraw a spiritual tool from the church?
Not really. All I am saying is that one must embrace God the Holy Spirit with all His gifts and allow Him to manifest them as He wills.Oh no, not the usual scare tactics to frighten people away from exposing the false teachings of the pentecostal/charismatic movement? It certainly won't work on me.
Are you sure that was Paul's definition of prophecy? It might be the modern Pentecostal's definition, but I doubt that it was Paul's. When he referred to prophets, he was more likely speaking about what he knew about prophecy from the Old Testament prophets, who were the preachers of their time.
Therefore he may very well have viewed the prophets in the churches as the preachers of the Word to encourage, build up and exhort the believers in the same way that preachers do in our modern churches.
I get a clue when he talks about a prophet who is speaking and another one gets a revelation, so the first prophet needs to sit down and let the second one share what God has given him. I have seen this in group sharing meetings which we call "body ministry", where there have been several speakers who have shared what they have been given by the Lord to share. They were not giving "prophecies" in the Pentecostal sense of the word, but just naturally sharing revelation from the Word. I see that as more of what prophecy was done in the Corinthian church.
I think that many Pentecostals have "over spiritualized" prophecy and jumped up in the middle of services and given Elizabethan language prophecies saying "thus says the Lord", as if God has interrupted the service to give a special message to the people. I am tending away from that, to prophecy being more like what the preacher preaches to build up and people in their faith.
When Paul says that when two or three prophets speak, it is just the same as having two or three speakers in a meeting sharing from the Word, while the others judge what is being spoken to confirm that what they are saying is consistent with the Word. I think that New Testament prophecy is much more "down to earth" (meaning non-"super spiritual" rather than worldly) that what many Pentecostals and Charismatics have thought.
I would venture to say that many "Prophecies" are given in churches by people who have wanted to give their view with the intention of having others agree with them and so they tack the Name of the Lord on to them. These often are people who are never invited to share or preach in the church and often are not part of the recognised leadership. I label many of these prophecies as "witchcraft" prophecies, because they are given to exercise control and manipulation rather than to encourage and build up the people in Christ.
The ones I have studied, Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon and Augustine, did not actually go to the same lengths that modern Cessationists have gone to tar and feather believers who have manifested the gifts of the Spirit.So included among the false prophets would be Calvin, Luther, Owen, Edwards, Hodge, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Augustine, Chrytoston, etc, etc, all of whom were cessationists? As indeed were the vast majority of Christian leaders throughout church history.
Not really. All I am saying is that one must embrace God the Holy Spirit with all His gifts and allow Him to manifest them as He wills.
We should expose falsehood of any kind in the church and we should definitely warn believers of the dangers of going after other spirits instead of the Holy Spirit.
But I do think that it is an insult to God the Holy Spirit to dictate to Him how He should use His gifts to build up the body of Christ. If HE wants a person to speak in tongues, then HE will inspire them, and HE won't be entertaining any criticism of HIMSELF for doing it that way. After all He is God and He is moving under the sovereignty of the Father and the Son, Who can do what they think it is right.
But if a person receives a spirit of witchcraft and uses the gifts to manipulate, intimidate or control others, which the Holy Spirit NEVER does, then they will manifest a false gift - and that is what should be exposed when detected.
But I think it is wrong to tar and feather every single believer who manifests a spiritual gift,
I'm enjoying our exchanges because we have intelligent discussions. However, I'm off to the gym to do my thing, so I'll come back to you in an hour or two.So you admit your own tongues are fake?
But the tongues the linguists study are those that are recorded in church services - in their proper environment. The words they hear are the same the congregation hears. They still draw a blank.
You see this is a perfect example...Waving hands and decrying what a commentator writes doesn't make your opinion true. All it does is raise a question - why does he dismiss what the commentator writes without showing why it is wrong?
Another commentator writes:
1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
Speaketh not unto men - Does not speak so that people can understand him. His address is really not made to people, that is, to the church. He might have this faculty without being able to speak to the edification of the church. It is possible that the power of speaking foreign languages and of prophesying were sometimes united in the same person; but it is evident that the apostle speaks of them as different endowments, and they probably were found usually in different individuals.
But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses “in the church,” when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that “there” that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see 1Co 14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.
For no man understandeth him - That is, no man in the church, since they all spoke the same language, and that language was different from what was spoken by him who was endowed with the gift of tongues. As God only could know the import of what he said, it would be lost upon the church, and would be useless.
Howbeit in the Spirit - Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be “lost” upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them. The phrase “in the Spirit,” evidently means “by the Holy Spirit,” that is, by his aid and influence. Though he should be “really” under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and though the important truth which he delivers should be imparted by his aid, yet all would be valueless unless it were understood by the church.
He speaketh mysteries - For the meaning of the word “mystery,” see Note, 1Co 2:7. The word here seems to be synonymous with sublime and elevated truth; truth that was not before known, and that might be of the utmost importance.
It matches the description perfectly .But today's "tongues" is not the New Testament gift. It doesn't match the description given in scripture. Not even Pentecostalism's chief theologian Gordon Fee is prepared to affirm that Pentecostals speak New Testament tongues. The most he is prepared to say is that it is something analogous to tongues. So it is not an insult to the Holy Spirit to expose something that is claimed to be something that it is not.
You're offering your opinion about what it allegedly "plainly says" as "what is plainly written" when in fact your interpretation ignores what is written and jumps to conclusions that support a particular theological bias about what the passage means. That is called eisegesis.You see this is a perfect example...
Because you refuse to except what it plainly says you break it into peices then you dissect each peice into ambiguity .
You csnt acceot it as its plainly written because it proves your predosposed theory is wrong.
So you undermine the scripture to wrestle and mangle it to fit.
I simply accept what it plainly says.
You should also
The ones I have studied, Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon and Augustine, did not actually go to the same lengths that modern Cessationists have gone to tar and feather believers who have manifested the gifts of the Spirit.
Have you got the quote for that?Calvin believed that the gifts ceased but because of the lowering of holiness standards and the corruption of the church through pagan practices.
Luther believed in healing, and he said that he got filled with the Spirit and uttered words that he did not understand. He didn't call them tongues though, but referred to them as gushings of the Spirit through him.
Augustine did deny the spiritual gifts when he was younger, but went to the opposite view when he saw the miracles and the healing in his church, so he went to the Roman church leaders and tried to withdraw his previous statements, but they refused and kept his repudiated Cessationist comments as the policy of the church.
Finney was a supporter of Edwards' doctrine and in all his writing I don't detect any Cessationist views at all, although he may have acknowledged that the Apostolic gifts had ceased for the same reason as Calvin's.
So there is a vast difference between having an honest Cessationist view on the basis of the evidence they have, but are willing to be led of the Spirit in whatever He says to them, and a Cessationist, through a religious witchcraft spirit seeking to control and manipulate believers into believing his teaching as the absolute truth and that folks are condemned if they don't believe it.
It matches the description perfectly .
As shown in the Op.
As shown in scripture.
Another commentator writes:
1 Corinthians 14:2
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