tongues: speaking in known languages or unknown?

[tall73]

There are many references to tongues in the Bible. The two references that probably tell us the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. My question is this. Are the tongues in I Corinthians the same gift as the one in Acts 2?

 

[awesumtenor]

There are many references to tongues in the Bible. The two references that probably tell us the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. My question is this. Are the tongues in I Corinthians the same gift as the one in Acts 2?

Yes.

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[tall73]

I will draw up my answer in more detail in a bit, but I feel they are different. In
Acts the gift appears to be the ability to speak and everyone hears it in their own language. Where as in I Corinthians it appears to be a private prayer language that is not generally understood. Both are seen as being manifestations of the Spirit, but seem to be different.

 

[awesumtenor]

I will draw up my answer in more detail in a bit, but I feel they are different. In
Acts the gift appears to be the ability to speak and everyone hears it in their own language. Where as in I Corinthians it appears to be a private prayer language that is not generally understood. Both are seen as being manifestations of the Spirit, but seem to be different.

No; in 1Corinthians it is an understood language as well... but post your detailed answer and I will respond.

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[tall73]

Fair enough Here is my position: Paul stresses that the tongues were not understood without interpretation. This was the opposite of the gift in Acts where the miracle was that people who would not normally understand the speaker could.


1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

A. In Acts they were clearly speaking to men.

B. It says that no one understands them here. In Acts all understood them.

C. They did not simply utter mysteries but were intelligible in Acts.




1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.
1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.


A. tongues are contrasted with prophecy which builds up

B. Tongues speak to PEOPLE

C. The tongue speaker edifies himself. Clearly in Acts 2 they edified those listening.


1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

A. This notes that those speaking in tongues need an interpreter. The whole miracle of Acts 2 was that no one needed an interpreter.

B. Prophesy is therefore seen as more important, building up the whole church through a word from God.



1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
1Co 14:7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?
1Co 14:8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?
1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.


A. tongues in themselves don't benefit listeners. They must have intelligible content.

B. He compares it to instruments which do not sound a note that is clearly distinguished, so no one knows what is being played. In the same way no one knew what was being said by those speaking in tongues.

C. The trumpet or bugle call in the Bible was for signaling. But tongues was being used in a way that was not intelligible to others.

D. They were "speaking into the air" not to other people.



1Co 14:10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning,
1Co 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.


A. Those speaking in tongues do speak in a language, but one that is not known to those listening.

B. Paul says they should desire those gifts which build others up, not just themselves. So if they speak in a tongue they should pray for the power to interpret. This was not needed in Acts. All understood in their own language.



1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?


A. Both speaking in tongues and speaking with the mind are necessary.

B. the audience could not say amen (truly, etc.) because they did not know what was said.



1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Co 14:19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


A. In tongues we give thanks but others are not built up

B. five intelligible words are better than ten thousand words in a tongue because they are not known.

 

[moicherie]

It is a known language but since the hearers do no know what it is to them it is a mystery. To God it is not cos He knows all human languages. I only speak English so unless one tells me what language you are speaking if it is not English then to me its a mystery- same principle

 

[tall73]

It is a known language but since the hearers do no know what it is to them it is a mystery. To God it is not cos He knows all human languages. I only speak English so unless one tells me what language you are speaking if it is not English then to me its a mystery- same principle

Quite agreed, hence Paul's reference to no language being without meaning. But it is not the same gift in Acts in which all heard in their own language, not needing a translator.

 

[Sophia7]

It seems to me that some manifestations of speaking in tongues involve "languages" that only God can understand--that is, not humanly known languages, as evidenced by 1 Corinthians 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit."

 

[HoneyDew]

That trips me up (I know it does others, as well). Our church has always emphasized that whatever "tongue" is spoken is an actual language that another person can understand. I have hardly heard mention or sermons on the above verse. If I am mistaken and we (as a denom) have accepted "unknown tongues" why is there nothing said about that?

 

[SassySDA]

That trips me up (I know it does others, as well). Our church has always emphasized that whatever "tongue" is spoken is an actual language that another person can understand. I have hardly heard mention or sermons on the above verse. If I am mistaken and we (as a denom) have accepted "unknown tongues" why is there nothing said about that?

I'm not certain, Dew. I was taught this in the Baptist Church I came up in as a child...the "utterances, mysteries in the spirit" scripture. I just wasn't taught about the "known language" scripture.

Therefore I am not "surprised" by "unknown tongues", as to why our denom (my church in particular) doesn't mention it (or hasn't since I've been around), I don't know. Next time pastor is here for bible study, I will ask him about his take on it...for now I am curious.

But I do know one thing...either way, it doesn't entail people bouncing around rooms, bumping into walls, or flailing about on the floor with dresses up over their heads (women). **I just do NOT believe the Holy Spirit works that way.


**note I said "I", and am not professing to have scripture to back up this belief.

 

[Cliff2]

I'm not certain, Dew. I was taught this in the Baptist Church I came up in as a child...the "utterances, mysteries in the spirit" scripture. I just wasn't taught about the "known language" scripture.

Therefore I am not "surprised" by "unknown tongues", as to why our denom (my church in particular) doesn't mention it (or hasn't since I've been around), I don't know. Next time pastor is here for bible study, I will ask him about his take on it...for now I am curious.

But I do know one thing...either way, it doesn't entail people bouncing around rooms, bumping into walls, or flailing about on the floor with dresses up over their heads (women). **I just do NOT believe the Holy Spirit works that way.


**note I said "I", and am not professing to have scripture to back up this belief.

You are right, the Holy Spirit does not bounce into walls or bounce around rooms or have women lifting their dress over their head.

Spot on in your conclusions.

 

[moicherie]

It seems to me that some manifestations of speaking in tongues involve "languages" that only God can understand--that is, not humanly known languages, as evidenced by 1 Corinthians 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit."

But why would one need another language that is unknown to man to speak to God? He can hear one in one Mothers tongue? For if there is this unknown to humanity tongue one can not use it in public cos noone would be able to understand or interpret

 

[tall73]

That is why I posted this. I had always understood tongues to be simply speaking and others heard in their own language, such as in the book of Acts. But over time I have come to realize that this text is very clearly talking about something else.

Just wondering if I was the only one confused on this.

Only one problem...I can't ask my pastor because he is just as confused!

But in any case, I think that Adventists have a tendency to downplay this type of manifestation because it is associated with some of the extremes that others have mentioned.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Ever notice that any time "unknown tongue" is mentioned in 1 Corinthians, the word "unknown" is italicized?

 

[tall73]

yes, because it is not in the original. But then, considering the rest of the passage it still seems to be an unknown tongue.

 

[TrustAndObey]

yes, because it is not in the original. But then, considering the rest of the passage it still seems to be an unknown tongue.

It drives me crazy when I can't think of the book (of the Bible) I read something in, but I remember reading that when we pray, the Holy Spirit "cleans up" our prayer and gives it to God in perfect form. In other words, where we pause and stumble, the Holy Spirit makes our prayer perfect...in language and shape.

Did that make sense?

Know which verses I'm talking about?

Anyway, that's what I think 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about. The Holy Spirit interprets our prayer before it goes to God and makes it presentable to Him.

 

[tall73]

RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.


However, why would the people in the church not understand then? It would still be human language that was cleaned up later.

 

[TrustAndObey]

RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.


However, why would the people in the church not understand then? It would still be human language that was cleaned up later.

That's it! Thanks Tall.

As to the question you asked, I don't know. Here's what I do know....

In Acts, the true gift of tongues was being able to speak in your own tongue, but people of different tongues would understand you in THEIRS.

I went to a charismatic church once where the congregation spoke "in tongues" and the interpreter was making up what they said as he went along. Nothing that was being "interpreted" was edifying to anyone.

The Bible says two or maybe three shall speak in tongues, but amazingly the whole church was talking this way. For a long time I didn't see anyone interpreting at all. One guy did start interpreting, but what he was saying didn't make sense either.

Later the friend I went with told me there is a lot of pressure to talk and act that way and she would just make it up.

That was a really bad experience for me because one guy grabbed me and started yelling at me (screaming really) in "tongues" and his eyes were rolling back in his head. I ran out of that church crying and screaming. My friend told me he must've sensed that I needed God or something. I politely told her "that was not God".

I never held it against the church as the whole, but then again I never went back either.

Since then I have had a really hard time praying out loud. I prefer to pray in my prayer closet (sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic).

I think what I saw and what I see on TV is a ridiculous display and that people have taken the Word of God and are making a joke out of it.

If you read 1 Corinthians and replace "tongue" with "language" and leave out the word "unknown", it makes sense.

 

[SassySDA]

That is why I posted this. I had always understood tongues to be simply speaking and others heard in their own language, such as in the book of Acts. But over time I have come to realize that this text is very clearly talking about something else.

Just wondering if I was the only one confused on this.

Only one problem...I can't ask my pastor because he is just as confused!

But in any case, I think that Adventists have a tendency to downplay this type of manifestation because it is associated with some of the extremes that others have mentioned.

If it were to mean that I would have to believe in the "hysterics" I've witnessed in person, and labeled as "speaking in tongues", I would downplay it too.

I still don't understand the need for this "utterance". If God can hear me, even when I don't open my mouth and speak, why would a prayer in "mysterious utterances" be necessary? I just don't get this part, yet.

I think Tall hit on something when he said why the church might downplay it. When you witness someone "allegedly" speaking tongues, it's a scary experience for an adult, let alone a child.

 

[HoneyDew]

Well, I am going to pass on a bit of heresay.
My girlfriend (a pastor's wife) told me of three Asian women who were visiting the States and went to a charismatic or WOF church to fellowship. They went in the middle of the people being "slain in the spirit" but came out faster than anything. They could not even stop outside the church to catch their breath. According to them, the people jumping up and "speaking in tongues" were actually cursing God in a language that the women understood. Not only were they cursing Him, but they were invoking the spirit of darkness.
I have no way of verifying the above, except that it came from a person I trust to speak the truth, and she says it is the truth because those three ladies told her that story the following week after the incident.