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Tongues...probably everyone has already discussed this, but...

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Dave01

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Absolutely.

Thank you for your humility brother.

Blessings upon you as you walk in the Spirit of Grace and truth!

That's no problem. My zeal and confidence is easily viewed as arrogance at times, so it is best that I put myself aside here when I feel "I'm" being shown instead of Christ.

But one thing did happen though. When I excused myself from this thread, The Holy Spirit was grieved inside of me, and I was surprised. I thought you were correct in your outline, so I thought that maybe my actions had grieved Him. That was not the case. I just woke up here and the first thing on my mind from The Lord is this particular exchange of ideas here between you and I, and The Lord wanting me to look this up more.

My problem is I don't read greek, and sometimes I'm too quick to accept anothers usage of the greek over the leading of The Holy Spirit at times because of that. But also, I have caught others utilizing the greek incorrectly at times for their own doctrine.

Now here is the problem:

The Greek is clear that each man/one (singular eiV or one [here rendered as "man" in the KJV]) heard THEM ALL (plural ekastoV a compound of the singular meaning more than one) speaking in there NATIVE (idia "one's own") language.

That word "all" you put in there is not in the greek and no one translates it this way. Here is a snapshot of my online bible program page,..

As you see, no one adds that word "all" in there. If we say that interpretation was automatically being given to the crowd, then we place the gift upon the people instead of the disciples, and that is not so, as a few commentators have said,..


I'll address you observations next post.
 
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Dave01

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Let's go through each one,..

1) Not true and most likely a personal interpretation of the greek here. If this was the understanding of the greek, then english translations would point out this meaning, and as was shown, none seem to. Greek scholars would not comment with the opposite view either. This has the people being endowed with the gifts instead of the Disciples. This also has GOD working through fallen man's spirit somehow.

2) Not true. This does not take in account The Holy Spirit's functions through believers to provide understanding of GOD's word and wisdom.

3, 4, 5) Not true. The word "tongues" is plural and these statements do not take into account the varied workings and operations of this gift by GOD. It leaves one with the view there is but one type of tongue and one operation of the gift and no other. This view would not agree with scripture,...

 
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bithiah2

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Mathetes the kerux

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I will respond when I have a moment.

But suffice the Greek is clear . . . and so is the English.

"Each one" is singular in the Greek . . . "them" is plural in the Greek (as well as the English). Look up the terms in any lexicon (Strong, Kittle, etc). This means one heard all.

Commentators are giving their interpretation . . . and so are translators.

Not to mention that each commentator that you refer to no doubt bounds presupposition in their rendition . . . I doubt they believe in the charisma . . . may even be cessationists.

I once was in a debate . . . I had made a propositional contention that I hadn't actually done the study on myself. The Spirit was all over me and kept me restless . . . I had a hard time sleeping. Anyway . . . the Spirit wasn't persuing me because I was wrong . . . but because He wanted me to search out the issue on my own. When I did . . . He then granted me peace.

Lastly . . . quickly . . . the move of the Spirit in the ears of the hearers was in those who would believe and be baptized shortly after . . . the miracle of hearing wasn't in the ears of the mockers. So . . . just as God moves in our hearts first (then we respond) to regenerate us . . . so God moves first here.

Not to mention the anecdotal evidence . . . take Jack Hayford . . . he recounts a story about a time in an airplane when he sat next to a Native American gentleman. Somewhere in the conversation the topic of tongues was broached and the gentleman wanted Pastor Hayford to demonstrate for him. Jack didn't want to but felt a release from the Spirit. So he spoke in tongues. Now Jack spoke in the ecstatic prayer tongue that he always spoke in . . . BUT THE MAN HEARD IN HIS OWN NATIVE AMERICAN DIALECT about the great chief Jesus etc.

There are TONS of stories like this. Now is the chance that non-charismatic commentators with no experience on the gifts are wrong? Yes indeed. Remember tongues wasn't very prevalent since the first cent. until the 20th cent.; that is 19 cent.s of non experiential understanding.
 
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Dave01

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There is also a problem with your idea here that GOD moved this gift only upon certain hearers also. I think I gathered this correctly out of your posts, that there were certain people that heard this and others didn't.

If this was the case, are you then saying that GOD only opened this gift of salvation up to those whom HE wanted and not to everyone?
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I am saying that the hearts that would be responsive God allowed to soften. There was a group that gathered at the sound (phone [fon-ay]). Within that group you have those who heard the glories of God in their native dialects . . . whom responded "what does this mean?" and the others who heard the sound with no understanding and accused the disciples of being drunk.
 
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Dave01

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No, that is not what I'm talking about, this is what you said first,...

Actually the Greek plays out that the tongues spoken in Acts 2 were the same tongues that Paul refered to.

Now if this was the case, you're saying that the hearer was dependant upon GOD to open the understanding of that spiritual language up to them, elsewise they were not going to understand it unless GOD was going to make that happen.

This poses certain problems here.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Let me intrude...

I understand what MtK is saying, but I 'm with Dave01 on this one.

If this was the only story or instruction that we had about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, then such an interpretation would have merit, but we are not operating in a vaccum here. We have other examples as well as specific instruction about tongues to draw from.

In regards to what was heard, the text says that "...every man heard them speak in his own language." It did not say that 'every man heard every one of them...'; it also did not say that 'every man heard some of them...'. While it could mean 'every one of them', it could also mean 'some of them'. There is no additional evidence within the immediate context to support either interpretation. Not to mention that the possiblity seems to fly in the face of what we know about the spiritual gifts in that there is no gift of 'manifold ears' as one writer described the interpretation that you are defending.

In regards to who heard, the text says that "...every man heard...". Here the scripture is very specific about who heard, and that was every man. I don't even see what there is to discuss on this point.

Peace...
 
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Dave01

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Let me go through this,..


You're adding that word "all" in there, as if each one heard all of them speaking just their one particular language. That is not true according to scripture,..

4 (ASV) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

That particular word there means other/different/diverse,..not just a singular language, so we have scripture pointing this out also. I don't think I have much more to elaborate on here with scripture being this particular about it.


That can be seen in some commentators, but not always. Some commentators go strickly by the greek. You see, I can't just accept your understanding alone here, my victory is in a multitude of witnesses since I can't read greek. The final say-so on the matter is what The Holy Spirit witnesses in my spirit as true.


This is an assumption here that there is but one tongue spoken by a believer, but the gift is titled "gift of tongues" plural.


There are plenty of experiences by believers. I personally have spoken many natural languages at times in my prayer tongue, and I see that as the manifold operation here of the gift, as the word says,.



Well, the idea you're promoting here is that none of them could be right. That is really what the overall message is.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Yes, but if the disciples were speaking in 'other tongues' (plural here) and 'every man' was hearing some of 'them' speak in his own language, and some of 'them' speaking in other languages that their neighbors understood but sounded like gibberish to them, this would also explain what happened, and be much more consistent with what we know about tongues from the balance of the biblical text.

Peace...
 
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Woman4Virtue

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Your questioned you posted is something that alot of people have trouble understanding. But the bible say that tongues is a gift that every christian should have. It is how you speak with God with the Holy Spirit. Because there will come a time when you will not know what to say or how to pray and when you speak with your tongue that is the Holy Spirit speaking directly to God. As far as interpeting that is another gift that is given to us from God. When you speak in a tongue out loud to others they have no idea what you are saying so they can not be edifyed. But if there is someone there to interpet what you said then all is edifyed.

I hope this helps you alittle. Just know that if you yourself would like more understanding then pray to God and ask Him to reveal to you what you just said in tongues and He will reveal it to you .

Be blessed
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I got a sec.

Every word must have an antecedant.

"them" has as its antecedant "matheton/ai" (the disciples). The text does not distinguish the disciples into smaller groups . . . it only speaks of the disciples as ONE group . . . all of them. It doesn't break down the group into any smaller categories. Hence, "them" being plural, refers to what Luke has been speaking about the whole time . . . the WHOLE (which means ALL) group of disciples.

Luke does however distinguish the hearers. There is the group that hears the sound and doesn't understand (like Paul's companions on the road to Damascus), there is the group that hears the sound and is perplexed because they do understand, and then there is each one within the latter group who hear in their own dialect.

Again the Greek is clear. Each man (singular) heard them (a plural pronoun with its antecedant being the disciples) as a cohesive unit. There is no getting around it.

The fact that tongues is plural means nothing. Singular and plural are interchangable with respect to glosson/glossais . . . evidenced by Paul's usage in 1 Cor 12-14. Besides, phone (sound) is singular. So while the disciples spoke in tongues (which really makes no difference anyway) . . . the crowd gathered at the sound . . . not sounds. Interesting is that they are both in the feminine declinsion . . . making their connection inevitable.
 
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