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I never claimed to examine the biology of others, I said I make an assumption of their biology based on how they look. You know; kinda like everybody else does.Then why do you have a chance with other people? What opportunity do you have to examine the biology of other people that you did not have here?
I didn’t poison the well; they did when the took the original “I’m a male in a female’s body” to what we have now with a hundred different genders and everybody getting their own pronoun.Poisoning the well. You dismiss it as "absurd" and "a game" in order to justify why you don't want to do it.
Your experiences are a result of stimulus and response and sentience....so I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here....
Could you rephrase the question?
I never claimed to examine the biology of others, I said I make an assumption of their biology based on how they look. You know; kinda like everybody else does.
I didn’t poison the well; they did when the took the original “I’m a male in a female’s body” to what we have now with a hundred different genders and everybody getting their own pronoun.
Simple. You separate gender from biological sex as distinct concepts. In areas that biology isn't relevant, then you speak of gender from it's purely sociological standpoint. In areas that biology does matter, then the sociological concept of gender is irrelevant.
In all honesty, masculinity and femininity aren't exactly biological concepts just like sexuality isn't a biological concept. Biology generally creates a disposition one way or the other for all of these things, but they are distinct from scientific facts. So if I decide "he" refers to masculine folk and "she" refers to feminine folk, who's to say I'm wrong? Humans literally just made up language anyways.
I can use whichever pronouns match the masculine or feminine way people present themselves without lying because those pronouns have nothing to do with the concept of biological sex for me.
If the trans person thinks differently about that, so what? Who cares? I didn't create the confrontation that will spark that discussion that I don't want to bother with anyways.
And sure, going along with pronouns might make some folk ask for more, so then you just say "no" to the unreasonable stuff. Slippery Slope is a fallacy. You can say, "Sure, whatever" to reasonable stuff without becoming obligated to go along with just any old thing.
Why do I need to write out the answer to this? Surely you read the exchange that you inserted yourself into before posting... right?
That IS what I would do. I'm not gonna tell a complete stranger who looks like a woman, that they are a man! If that is the impression I gave you, you've misunderstood me.[/QUOTE]So what? You made an assumption about the person you saw in the men's room and then chose to ignore that in order to accept them at their word. Why can't you do that in other cases?.
But you've stated many times essentially that.That IS what I would do. I'm not gonna tell a complete stranger who looks like a woman, that they are a man! If that is the impression I gave you, you've misunderstood me.
Let me know if you don't like me butting in here. I just wanted to insert my own thoughts on this one. If it were me, I would not immediately jump to conclusions. I would ask for clarification. I might say, "Are you telling me you're trans?" If he says, "Yes", I might not care, but that doesn't mean that I don't value him as a human being. It just means that I've made up my mind not to respect by using his preferred pronouns. What's the worst that can happen? Does he report me to HR? (If we're in the workplace)But you've stated many times essentially that.
If you meet someone who was born with a penis and they tell you that they are a woman, what pronouns would you use if you told me about it later? Would you refer to them as a he or a she?
Let me know if you don't like me butting in here. I just wanted to insert my own thoughts on this one. If it were me, I would not immediately jump to conclusions. I would ask for clarification. I might say, "Are you telling me you're trans?" If he says, "Yes", I might not care, but that doesn't mean that I don't value him as a human being. It just means that I've made up my mind not to respect by using his preferred pronouns. What's the worst that can happen? Does he report me to HR? (If we're in the workplace)
Is this person a biological man or intersexualBut you've stated many times essentially that.
If you meet someone who was born with a penis and they tell you that they are a woman, what pronouns would you use if you told me about it later? Would you refer to them as a he or a she?
So when you said "no longer" you meant "usually don't". kAs a rule, yes. But there has occasionally been exceptions to that rule done on a case by case basis.
For the most part, I'd go with the first. Basically my own subjective expectations of what a guy or gal looks like. Let's be honest, even putting the trans topic aside, it can be ambiguous at times. In those cases the person in question can correct me. And yes, "ambiguous" is subjective as well, but I think that by generally following these guidelines I'm not going to upset anyone minding their own business.Some believe that personal pronouns should be assigned on the basis of prevailing cultural gender stereotypes. Others believe that they should be assigned on the basis of the subjective gender preferences of the person being referred to. Which of these two positions do you hold to? If neither, then what third position do you hold to?
By "presents themselves" are you talking primarily about their objective appearance or their subjective beliefs?
My thoughts are that it makes no difference to me. I see no need to ask a person if they are trans if I suspect they are, in just the same way I wouldn't feel the need to ask a person in a wheelchair why they are in that wheelchair.
As far as I am concerned, it's a person, treat them with respect.
I only replied that way because your hypothetical statement presupposes that it would be news to me. If it wasn't news, then I wasn't using the preferred pronouns to begin with.But you've stated many times essentially that.
If you meet someone who was born with a penis and they tell you that they are a woman, what pronouns would you use if you told me about it later? Would you refer to them as a he or a she?
On the contrary, let's give those concepts of roles and norms to gender, and we'll say "sex" concerns the biological. We have two concepts at play, it creates less confusion to have two words.I'm not concerned with ideas about gender roles or norms. Whatever is left once you remove those from the term gender....that's all we need to discuss.
Sure, why not? We still have more technical terms when we're talking about biologically pertinent topics, like "male" and "female".And if those pronouns don't connect in any way to biological sex....what are they connecting to? Fashion? Behavior?
Ahh, your Argument from Silence fallacy is better evidence for what I really believe than what I've already explicitly stated in this very thread. Noted.As for the claim of detaching gender from sex...I doubt you seriously believe this. Why the hesitation and dodging of the question I posed to you? You don't have to provide graphic detail....you can simply say that you would or wouldn't engage in a sexual relationship with such a person.
On the contrary, let's give those concepts of roles and norms to gender, and we'll say "sex" concerns the biological. We have two concepts at play, it creates less confusion to have two words.
Sure, why not? We still have more technical terms when we're talking about biologically pertinent topics, like "male" and "female".
Ahh, your Argument from Silence fallacy is better evidence for what I really believe than what I've already explicitly stated in this very thread. Noted.
I'm asking how much of who we are is a result of that "stimulus and response and sentience."
We haven't diverged from that. A "gender identity" doesn't have to involve that person's biological sex. The overly-woke folk want to eliminate the concept of biological sex, you want to eliminate the concept of gender identity. They're both clearly at play in this topic. Trying to eliminate ways to convey ideas is only going to lead to confusion.Let's not...norms and roles are matters of expectation. I don't care if some woman or man acts masculine or feminine or in any other way breaks with traditionally understood roles and norms. That's not the issue.
The issue is a claim about feelings and their relationship with someone's identity....and that relationship with the society around them. We can just stick to that.
Did you just cite a dictionary definition at me as though it is authoritative? You realize that humans literally just made up language, right?Because they don't. We may identify people according to secondary sex characteristics....but those characteristics are not what the words "he" and "she" refer to.
Definition of HE
Hey, did you know that every time you quote someone, that little quote box has a link to where you snipped the quote from? So if you stumble across a conversation that you find interesting, all you have to do is click that little arrow to retrace your steps through that conversation without having to scan page after page for the relevant info you're looking for? Neat huh?If you already answered my question somewhere in this 30 page thread....please link me the post or at least provide the post number.
It sure is. It's incredibly useful and saves a lot of time to not confront things that aren't related to an issue. When biology matters, we can talk about it. When it doesn't matter... why are we talking about it?I've only pointed out that it's easy to disregard biology when you don't have to confront it in any way that relates to the issue.
How did I find out he has a penis?If you want any more information than what they have provided, you'll have to ask them.
I only replied that way because your hypothetical statement presupposes that it would be news to me. If it wasn't news, then I wasn't using the preferred pronouns to begin with.
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