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rahma

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Kris_J said:
& everyone else with an opinion.What do you think of Malcolm X?

He is a hero of mine and one of the reasons I am a muslim today.

I wonder if Malcolm X was just using Islam initially as a tool to fight racism.

Malcolm X used the Nation of Islam as a form of black empowerment. When he converted to mainstream Islam, he found human empowerment as an enherent part of the faith.

Malcolm's letter from Mecca

Malcolm said:
America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered 'white'--but the 'white' attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.

Martin Luther also fought racism, but did not drag religion into it.

Actually, Martin Luther King Junior's speeches are chock full of religion. In fact, there is a whole book dedicated to his sermons.

Both saw their faith as a form of empowerment.
 
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arunma

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Kris_J said:
& everyone else with an opinion.What do you think of Malcolm X?

I wonder if Malcolm X was just using Islam initially as a tool to fight racism.

Martin Luther also fought racism, but did not drag religion into it.

Martin Luther (King) didn't speak about religion? Based on the writings of his that I've read, he certainly did fight a religious struggle. He was a Baptist pastor by profession, and he mobilized his church to fight racial discrimination. Now, his writings also suggest that he was a heretic, because at certain times he denied the virgin birth and resurrection (I don't remember if this was early, or late in his career). Nontheless, his fight against segregation in the American South was certainly based in religion.
 
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Kris_J

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Please describe how the OP managed to state that ML King was not religious so I can correct it - as that is not what I intended to communicate at all. Thanks.

OK. I've only read 1 speech of each so far - their supposed better speeches (post Nation of Islam speech by M X & "I have a Dream" by ML King.
If you compare these "best" speeches by MLKing http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/speeches/address_at_march_on_washington.pdf
& Malcolm X http://www.malcolm-x.org/speeches/spc_021465.htm, it seems to me that Malcolm X is both promoting Islam & race equality, whilst MLKing is only talking about race equality using Biblical symbolism.

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Excerpt from Malcolm X's speech after separation from Nation of Islam:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So before I get involved in anything nowadays, I have to straighten out my own position, which is clear. I am not a racist in any form whatsoever. I don't believe in any form of racism. I don't believe in any form of discrimination or segregation. I believe in Islam. I am a Muslim. And there's nothing wrong with being a Muslim, nothing wrong with the religion of Islam. It just teaches us to believe in Allah as the God. Those of you who are Christians probably believe in the same God, because I think you believe in the God who created the universe. That's the One we believe in, the one who created the universe, the only difference being you call Him God and I -- we call Him Allah. The Jews call him Jehovah. If you could understand Hebrew, you'd probably call him Jehovah too. If you could understand Arabic, you'd probably call him Allah.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But since the white man, your "friend," took your language away from you during slavery, the only language you know is his language. You know, your friend's language. So you call for the same God he calls for. When he's putting a rope around your neck, you call for God and he calls for God. [Laughter and applause.] And you wonder why the one you call on never answers you.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So that once you realize that I believe in the Supreme Being who created the universe, and believe in him as being one -- I also have been taught in Islam that one God only has one religion, and that religion is called Islam, and all of the prophets who came forth taught that religion -- Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, all of them. And by believing in one God and one religion and all of the prophets, it creates unity. There's no room for argument, no need for us to be arguing with each other.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And also in that religion, of the real religion of Islam -- when I was in the Black Muslim movement, I wasn't -- they didn't have the real religion of Islam in that movement. It was something else. And the real religion of Islam doesn't teach anyone to judge another human being by the color of his skin. The yardstick that is used by the Muslim to measure another man is not the man's color but the man's deeds, the man's conscious behavior, the man's intentions. And when you use that as a standard of measurement or judgment, you never go wrong.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But when you just judge a man because of the color of his skin, then you're committing a crime, because that's the worst kind of judgment. If you judged him just because he was a Jew, that's not as bad as judging him because he's Black. Because a Jew can hide his religion. He can say he's something else -- and which a lot of them do that, they say they're something else. But the Black man can't hide. When they start indicting us because of our color that means we're indicted before we're born, which is the worst kind of crime that can be committed. The Muslim religion has eliminated all tendencies to judge a man according to the color of his skin, but rather the judgment is based upon his deeds.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And when, prior to going into the Muslim world, I didn't have any -- Elijah Muhammad had taught us that the white man could not enter into Makkah in Arabia, and all of us who followed him, we believed it. And he said the reason he couldn't enter was because he's white and inherently evil, it's impossible to change him. And the only thing that would change him is Islam, and he can't accept Islam because by nature he's evil. And therefore by not being able to accept Islam and become a Muslim, he could never enter Makkah. This is how he taught us, you know.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So when I got over there and went to Makkah and saw these people who were blond and blue-eyed and pale-skinned and all those things, I said, "Well!" But I watched them closely. And I noticed that though they were white, and they would call themselves white, there was a difference between them and the white one over here. And that basic difference was this: in Asia or the Arab world or in Africa, where the Muslims are, if you find one who says he's white, all he's doing is using an adjective to describe something that's incidental about him, one of his incidental characteristics; so there's nothing else to it, he's just white.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But when you get the white man over here in America and he says he's white, he means something else. You can listen to the sound of his voice -- when he says he's white, he means he's a boss. That's right. That's what "white" means in this language. You know the expression, "free, white, and twenty-one." He made that up. He's letting you know all of them mean the same. "White" means free, boss. He's up there. So that when he says he's white he has a little different sound in his voice. I know you know what I'm talking about.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This was what I saw was missing in the Muslim world. If they said they were white, it was incidental. White, black, brown, red, yellow, doesn't make any difference what color you are. So this was the religion that I had accepted and had gone there to get a better knowledge of it.[/font]

(I have highlighted parts that are very questionable IMO)
------

As for MLKing much of his speech "I have a dream" is not religious. It may be that he was not partial to Islam as a religion since he left it out at end of his speech when he mentions unity between Jews & Gentiles, Catholics & Protestants, & blacks & whites. - but I can give him the benefit of doubt as well as that the issue was about racial discrimination more than religious.
 
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Kris_J

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To all, I am not suggesting that both did not draw strength & inspiration from their respective religions. I am saying that Malcolm X revolves his position around his religion & evangelises at the same time about Islam in his speech post Nation of Islam 1965, & MLKing 1963 made his famous speech "I have a Dream" around the principles of fairness & freedom for all people regardless of religion. No promotion of Christianity there despite him being a Pastor.

BTW was Malcolm X an Imam or something?
 
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urnotme

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arunma said:
Martin Luther (King) didn't speak about religion? Based on the writings of his that I've read, he certainly did fight a religious struggle. He was a Baptist pastor by profession, and he mobilized his church to fight racial discrimination. Now, his writings also suggest that he was a heretic, because at certain times he denied the virgin birth and resurrection (I don't remember if this was early, or late in his career). Nontheless, his fight against segregation in the American South was certainly based in religion.
Are you talking about senior or junior? They both were Reverands and they both were cival rights leaders. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Martin+Luther+King%2c+Sr.
 
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Kris_J

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Kris_J

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rahma said:
He is a hero of mine and one of the reasons I am a muslim today.

Malcolm X used the Nation of Islam as a form of black empowerment. When he converted to mainstream Islam, he found human empowerment as an enherent part of the faith.

Malcolm's letter from Mecca

Actually, Martin Luther King Junior's speeches are chock full of religion. In fact, there is a whole book dedicated to his sermons.

Both saw their faith as a form of empowerment.
It seems to me that Martin Luther was seeking an identity free from white colonialism/imperialism. I suspect he looked to Africa & as his foundation for identity as an African-American & found Islam (instead of Christianity that arrived on the back of white colonial/imperialism).

If Martin Luther was Indian looking orphan in the US, he'd look to India & find Hinduism. - & there's nothing wrong with that.
 
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arunma

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Urnotme: I was referring to Martin Luther King Jr., the civil rights worker.

Kris_J said:
It seems to me that Martin Luther was seeking an identity free from white colonialism/imperialism. I suspect he looked to Africa & as his foundation for identity as an African-American & found Islam (instead of Christianity that arrived on the back of white colonial/imperialism).

You may be interested to know that Islam spead to Africa largely by the invasion. In fact, Christianity has far more ancient roots in Africa. The Egyptians became Christians, due to the preaching of Saint Mark, and were an important Christian civilization long before Islam arrived. Likewise, Ethiopia became predominantly Christian after Saint Philip evangelized an influential member in the court of Queen Candace, and the Ethiopians still practice Christianity today. Not a few of our most important church fathers are also Africans. There's no reason that many Africans shouldn't look to Christianity as the religion of their ancestors.
 
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urnotme

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Kris_J said:
My apologies for not clarifying - Jr was the more significant historical figure than Sr. & I assumed is the obvious conclusion. - Jr of course as rahma has picked up in 2nd post.
I thought you were but arunma said he was a baptist preacher. ML. senior was a baptist preacher and cival rights leader too. Aparently becoming a sunni muslim didn't do away wth malcomb Xes millitant attitude. http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Malcom+X+Little
Malcolm X, 1925–65, militant black leader in the United States, also known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, b. Malcolm Little in Omaha, Neb. He was introduced to the Black Muslims Black Muslims, African-American religious movement in the United States, split since 1976 into the American Muslim Mission and the Nation of Islam. The original group was founded (1930) in Detroit by Wali Farad (or W. D. Fard), whom his followers believed to be "Allah in person." When Farad disappeared mysteriously in 1934, Elijah Muhammad assumed leadership of the group, first in Detroit and then in Chicago.
while serving a prison term and became a Muslim minister upon his release in 1952. He quickly became very prominent in the movement with a following perhaps equaling that of its leader, Elijah Muhammad. In 1963, Malcolm was suspended by Elijah after a speech in which Malcolm suggested that President Kennedy's assassination was a matter of the "chickens coming home to roost." He then formed a rival organization of his own, the Muslim Mosque, Inc. In 1964, after a pilgrimage to Mecca, he announced his conversion to orthodox Islam and his new belief that there could be brotherhood between black and white. In his Organization of Afro-American Unity, formed after his return, the tone was still that of militant black nationalism but no longer of separation. In Feb., 1965, he was shot and killed in a public auditorium in New York City. His assassins were vaguely identified as Black Muslims, but this is a matter of controversy.
 
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Kris_J

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urnotme said:
In 1964, after a pilgrimage to Mecca, he announced his conversion to orthodox Islam and his new belief that there could be brotherhood between black and white. In his Organization of Afro-American Unity, formed after his return, the tone was still that of militant black nationalism but no longer of separation.
I wonder if that has anything to do with him not attaining the status of "Imam" when he went to mecca that took some of the fire.

Its kinda ironic how he is refered to as "Minister of Islam" rather than "Imam" when he tried so hard to change his name from Little to X to an Arabic name.
 
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