To Humble Joe

[VOW]

What are the questions you have about Infant Baptism?


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

You must have read my post in the denomination thread.

Well, the problem I have with it, concerning Presbyterians, is that when Presbyterians baptize their infants -- if they hold strictly to Calvinist belief -- they are saying that their babies are members of the Kingdom of God. The problem is, that if one of those Prebyterian parents' babies rebels against God his or her entire life, and ends up in Hell, then Calvin's claim that the baptized children of believers are automatically Christians is nullified, since -- according to Calvinist belief -- an Elect will persevere with God throughout his or her entire lifetime. Of course, I know what Catholics feel about this though.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
You must have read my post in the denomination thread.

Well, the problem I have with it, concerning Presbyterians, is that when Presbyterians baptize their infants -- if they hold strictly to Calvinist belief -- they are saying that their babies are members of the Kingdom of God. The problem is, that if one of those Prebyterian parents' babies rebels against God his or her entire life, and ends up in Hell, then Calvin's claim that the baptized children of believers are automatically Christians is nullified, since -- according to Calvinist belief -- an Elect will persevere with God throughout his or her entire lifetime. Of course, I know what Catholics feel about this though.

I know I'm not a Catholic, nor Presbyterian, but if you'll indulge me I'd like to comment.  A parent desiring the salvation of their child, or even saying they're saved because they were baptized is only a natural feeling that results from wanting your child to experience the same love we experience from God.  It doesn't make it so.  Nor does Calvin saying it make it so.  The elect will persevere.  However, as a parent, it is our responsibility to raise our children according to Biblical priniciples regardless of whether we believe them to be one of God's elect or not (not that I've ever met a Christian parent who, despite their child's actions, doubts their child's salvation.  It's just a parents love giving them hope no matter what happens).  And by way, the Calvinist belief is that once a person is regenerated they will remain that way.  But to clarify the "an Elect will persevere with God throughout his or her entire lifetime" comment, this just means that salvitically one elected by God, unto salvation, will remain saved.  This has nothing to do with their obedience.  Obedience to His Word is definitely something He will bring about but it's not a salvitic issue.  I think that's what you meant but I just thought I'd mention that.

God bless

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I know I'm not a Catholic, nor Presbyterian, but if you'll indulge me I'd like to comment.  A parent desiring the salvation of their child, or even saying they're saved because they were baptized is only a natural feeling that results from wanting your child to experience the same love we experience from God.  It doesn't make it so.  Nor does Calvin saying it make it so.  The elect will persevere.  However, as a parent, it is our responsibility to raise our children according to Biblical priniciples regardless of whether we believe them to be one of God's elect or not (not that I've ever met a Christian parent who, despite their child's actions, doubts their child's salvation.  It's just a parents love giving them hope no matter what happens).  And by way, the Calvinist belief is that once a person is regenerated they will remain that way.  But to clarify the "an Elect will persevere with God throughout his or her entire lifetime" comment, this just means that salvitically one elected by God, unto salvation, will remain saved.  This has nothing to do with their obedience.  Obedience to His Word is definitely something He will bring about but it's not a salvitic issue.  I think that's what you meant but I just thought I'd mention that.

God bless

Thanks Ref... I was really worried by what Calvin said about infant baptism. Sometimes I get carried away, because I believe Calvin spoke a lot of truth concerning reformed thought. But lately I've realized that reformed thought does not necessarily hinge on every whim that Calvin put forth. He furthered reformed thought tremendously, but I've learned to screen "wish it were so" doctrines.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Thanks Ref... I was really worried by what Calvin said about infant baptism. Sometimes I get carried away, because I believe Calvin spoke a lot of truth concerning reformed thought. But lately I've realized that reformed thought does not necessarily hinge on every whim that Calvin put forth. He furthered reformed thought tremendously, but I've learned to screen "wish it were so" doctrines.

Yeah.  I know how you feel bro.  It's sad that when people find out you believe the same fundamental doctrines as a noted theologian they spend far more time studying that person's life in an effort to come up with things to destroy their credibility than they do studying God's Word.  That goes for everyone.  Protestants try and discredit the Pope, "free will" protestants discredit Calvin and others, proponants of the "predestination" position oftentimes discredit arminianists, etc.  Not your typical picture of Christian love, in my opinion.

God bless,

Don

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Yeah.  I know how you feel bro.  It's sad that when people find out you believe the same fundamental doctrines as a noted theologian they spend far more time studying that person's life in an effort to come up with things to destroy their credibility than they do studying God's Word.  That goes for everyone.  Protestants try and discredit the Pope, "free will" protestants discredit Calvin and others, proponants of the "predestination" position oftentimes discredit arminianists, etc.  Not your typical picture of Christian love, in my opinion.

God bless,

Don

Yeah, and I've learned that in order to keep people from taking advantage of me, I openly admit that some of the reformation fathers made a few mistakes. Luther was antisemitic at times. Calvin thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Spurgeon was sometimes very contemptible toward Catholics. These men were not perfect, and I know that. All I can say is that they had a lot of good ideas, and like any other human, they were subject to errors as well.

Ya know, sometimes I don't even want to admit I'm a Calvinist, because in doing so, people instantly think I believe everything that Calvin believed, or that I "worship" him. I have to say that that irritates me to no end. I'm like Spurgeon: "I wish to be called nothing but a Christian".