To Drink or not to Drink--That is the Question!!

jonno · Sep 19, 2005

Cliff2 said:
"3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled." (KJV)

One thing for certain is does not mean Daniel drank alcoholic wine.

If you go back to the first chapter in Daniel and see how he did not take the food offered to him then, I am sure that he did not go back and now drink wine that was alcoholic.

Sorry Cliff, Are you saying he gave up grape juice for 3 weeks?

Cliff2 · Sep 19, 2005

jonno said:
Sorry Cliff, Are you saying he gave up grape juice for 3 weeks?

Look at what the Bible says not waht you try and read into my reply.

When we look at the big picture we see that God does not in any way support the use of alcoholic wine. Daniel did not use it no matter what tricks some may use to try and say he did.

happywiththelord · Sep 19, 2005

Amen Brother Cliff...Preach it!!

HoneyDew · Sep 19, 2005

Cliff2 said:
Look at what the Bible says not waht you try and read into my reply.

When we look at the big picture we see that God does not in any way support the use of alcoholic wine. Daniel did not use it no matter what tricks some may use to try and say he did.

I am sure that not everyone use "tricks" when they point out certain verses in the Bible that don't jibe with our notions of how things would be, if we had a hand in shaping them.
God did not support drunkenness. That is entirely evident.

Cliff2 · Sep 19, 2005

HoneyDew said:
I am sure that not everyone use "tricks" when they point out certain verses in the Bible that don't jibe with our notions of how things would be, if we had a hand in shaping them.
God did not support drunkenness. That is entirely evident.

In fact God says they will not go to heaven.

God also says not to drink alcohol at all and calls those who foolish.

jonno · Sep 19, 2005

HoneyDew said:
I am sure that not everyone use "tricks" when they point out certain verses in the Bible that don't jibe with our notions of how things would be, if we had a hand in shaping them.
God did not support drunkenness. That is entirely evident.

T
Abolutely!
Thank you Sister

honorthesabbath · Sep 20, 2005

"Unleavened Bread and Unfermented Wine "Christ is still at the table on which the paschal supper has been spread. The unleavened cakes used at the Passover season are before Him. The Passover wine, untouched by fermentation, is on the table. These emblems Christ employs to represent His own unblemished sacrifice. Nothing corrupted by fermentation, the symbol of sin and death, could represent the --Lamb without blemish and without spot.' 1 Peter 1:19." The Desire of Ages, p. 653.

Neither the wine nor the bread contained elements of fermentation as on the evening of the first day of the Hebrew Passover all leaven, or fermentation, had been removed from their dwellings (Ex. 12:15, 19; 13:7).

honorthesabbath · Oct 18, 2005

See--I told you!!!!!!!!!! rofl

PaleHorse · Oct 18, 2005

honorthesabbath said:
See--I told you!!!!!!!!!! rofl

Yep - you were right.

I personally find it funny that 80 years ago not a single Protestant church in the world condoned drinking alcohol but after the end of Prohibition suddenly the majority of them changed their stance from complete abstinence to "moderation". Gee, sounds like social/political rationalizations to me, not biblical truth. Can anyone say "compromise"?

Sophia7 · Oct 19, 2005

I know these are somewhat minor points, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things that I noticed on this thread. First:

statrei said:
They don't use regular wine and most of the time it is watered down. Incidentally, I am sure you have seen the special Jewish wines in the grocery stores. The first thing a Jewish boys sips at his bris is a sip of wine.

As I understand it, a bris is the ritual of circumcision, usually performed on Jewish boys on the eighth day after their birth. Did you mean bar mitzvah, or do they really give eight-day-old babies wine?

Second:

deu58 said:
For one, You have confused the Nazerene vow with the levitical preisthood,

It is the Nazerenes who were not permited to drink, The Levites were not permited to drink if they were to perform temple duties,

Nazarenes were people from the town of Nazareth (Jesus' hometown). Nazirites were people who had made a vow that included abstinence from wine as well as from any other product of the vine--grapes, raisins, grape juice, and fermented wine--among other instructions (see Numbers 6 for the instructions concerning Nazirites). Samson was set apart as a Nazirite from his birth, and even his mother could not drink wine while she was pregnant with him (Judges 13:2-7). John the Baptist also was under Nazirite requirements from his birth (Luke 1:11-15).

Finally, I have posted on this subject more extensively in the General Theology forum, but my personal belief is perhaps somewhat different from that of most conservative Adventists (and I am very conservative on most issues). I have no problem with advising people not to drink alcohol because of the numerous practical and health concerns previously mentioned in this thread.

However, I do not believe that the Bible explicitly condemns all use of it, or at the very least God was somewhat tolerant of people's usage in Bible times. The Bible does condemn drunkenness, and certainly it is sometimes difficult to avoid crossing the line between social/moderate drinking and drunkenness/addiction. Also, the Bible mentions new wine in a favorable light many times while it usually mentions strong drink in a negative light, definitely giving the impression that unfermented wine is preferable to fermented. However, the Bible explicitly prohibits people from using strong drink only in certain situations, such as when Aaron and his sons (and the successive high priests) went into the Tent of Meeting (Lev. 10:8-9); when a person took a Nazirite vow; and while the Israelites wandered in the desert (Deut. 29:2-6).

While the Bible really doesn't clarify whether the wine Jesus drank was fermented or unfermented, it does suggest that the Jews at least thought that He was drinking fermented wine:

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, `He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

For these reasons, I think that the traditional Adventist attempts to convince other Christians that the Bible condemns consumption of alcoholic beverages fall short. Perhaps we would do well to focus more on the practical reasons to abstain from alcohol rather than on trying to list a bunch of proof-texts, which are then countered by their own proof-texts--both of which have some validity. I think we could take some lessons from the temperance movement of the nineteenth century, which had very practical goals--to help those who had already experienced the negative effects of alcohol and to promote abstinence to prevent those consequences in the future.

Cliff2 · Oct 19, 2005

PaleHorse said:
Yep - you were right.

I personally find it funny that 80 years ago not a single Protestant church in the world condoned drinking alcohol but after the end of Prohibition suddenly the majority of them changed their stance from complete abstinence to "moderation". Gee, sounds like social/political rationalizations to me, not biblical truth. Can anyone say "compromise"?

Amen.

moicherie · Oct 19, 2005

Biblical truths - the bible condemns the abuse of alcohol/drunkeness, whether we like it not it does not outright condemn the use of alcohol. As a church we should promote abstinence on health grounds and not misuse bible texts to back it up. The Adventist pioneers had an abstinence mindset and as a new church interpreted the bible to suit their world view on alcohol. This attitude we sometimes have that our Adventist pioneers found and knew everything there is to know about what is in the Bible (to me) can make for a stagnant church.

PaleHorse · Oct 19, 2005

moicherie said:
Biblical truths - the bible condemns the abuse of alcohol/drunkeness, whether we like it not it does not outright condemn the use of alcohol. As a church we should promote abstinence on health grounds and not misuse bible texts to back it up. The Adventist pioneers had an abstinence mindset and as a new church interpreted the bible to suit their world view on alcohol. This attitude we sometimes have that our Adventist pioneers found and knew everything there is to know about what is in the Bible (to me) can make for a stagnant church.

It could make for a stagnate church - but on the other hand, when we are surrounded by those that hold differing views, there is ample work to do and thus stagnation becomes unlikely.

As for the Bible not outright condemning the use of alcohol I would diagree. For instance, there is the current thread that talks about Deut 14:26 - whether we get to the bottom of that is anyone's guess - but one thing we can keep in mind is that God permitted certain things in earlier times that are not permitted today, even things that were not especially desired by Him. For instance, under the law divorce was freely allowed. Deuteronomy 21:15 gives instructions to a man who had two wives. All things have not always been the same is the point. Further, it is clear that even in the OT the general thought regarding imbibing was clear:
Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

SnowBird77 · Oct 19, 2005

PaleHorse said:
Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Why do so many pretend the word "deceived" is not in that text?

moicherie · Oct 19, 2005

SnowBird77 said:
Why do so many pretend the word "deceived" is not in that text?

Does the bible talk about gluttony? If so does that mean we should not eat or should not abuse food and be greedy?

happywiththelord · Oct 19, 2005

come on now, we both know that you can live without alcohol, but we cannot live without food. and to be frank, we shoud not be gluttonous towards food either! we need to practice moderation in food, as many people do not. they need to ask for help from the Lord to overcome, but as for alcohol, we do not need it to survive and thus we shouldnt even be compairing it in this same manner.

alcohol, we dont ever need to touch the stuff!!

Princessdi · Oct 19, 2005

Wow! this is a popular subject!

honorthesabbath · Oct 19, 2005

Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker( how much wine is a mocker?? an ounce--a cup?? a gallon??), strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

I think the indictment is against the beverage itself--and NOT the amount!!!

happywiththelord · Oct 19, 2005

i totally agree!

SassySDA · Oct 19, 2005

happywiththelord said:
i totally agree!

I AGREE TOO!!

Hey Happy...give yourself a hand!

(I kill me) ROFL

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