To confess or not to confess our transgressions ??

Commoner · Aug 10, 2004

Qoheleth said:
Simply put (for sake of discussion), why would we ever confess a wrong (sin) to another individual or for that matter to God himself if we are already forgiven?

You wouldn't. You are not forgiven until you repent and confess your sins.

Commoner

eightfoot514 · Aug 10, 2004

Qoheleth said:
Well, all sin is separation from the will of God. Does scripture show us that some sins are more damaging or "serious" than others in that they pull us further away from God from HIS perspective not ours?

Jesus, who is also God, acknowleged one person's sin being greater than another.

John 19:11 Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Also, one person's sin is described as being a speck, while another person's is a plank.

Matthew 7:3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

And, throughout Scripture, there are lists of specific sins that are set aside as being very wicked or evil:

[font=&quot]Revelation 22:14-15
[/font][font=&quot]Revelation 21:8, 27
[/font][font=&quot]Leviticus 20:1-7
[/font][font=&quot]Leviticus [/font][font=&quot]18:26[/font][font=&quot]-30
[/font][font=&quot]1 Corinthians 6:9-10
[/font][font=&quot]Ephesians 5:5
[/font][font=&quot]Galatians [/font][font=&quot]5:19[/font][font=&quot]-21

[/font] John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

And finally, scripture shows that there are degrees of punishment in hell, therefore, some offenses are more damaging and severe than others.

Luke 12:47-48 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly.

Eric

Qoheleth · Aug 10, 2004

eightfoot514 said:
Jesus, who is also God, acknowleged one person's sin being greater than another.

John 19:11 Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

This is speaking of Israels rejection of the Messiah which is equal to the rejection of salvation and Gods grace itself. Of course this is greater sin, in fact it is the only unforgivable sin which is rejection- AKA- Unbelief.

If one sin, even if it a simple lie, keeps of from eternal life, how is any sin greater than the other in Gods eyes.

Other verses you provided speak of discipline, apostacy and temporal gradations. It is true that some sins have a greater affect upon our society and our personal psyche but are they not all covered by yhte blood of our saviour equally?

eightfoot514 · Aug 10, 2004

Well, every sin is evil, and every sin can also be forgiven, if that is what you are asking.

But suppose I just repented all of my sins and asked for forgiveness, and then a few minutes later, I called my boss and said I was sick so I couldn't come into work today. Then all of the sudden, I die (for whatever reason). Now, obviously I'm not going to go to hell for this. I believe in Jesus and repented earlier, but I did not repent of the sin I committed right before I died. That lie would be an example of venial sin.

Second situation: Suppose I have just repented all of my sins and asked for forgiveness, then suddenly, I remember how mad my friend made me last week. Then I go to his house, brutally torture and murder him and his entire family. Then right after that, I drop dead (for whatever reason). Do you think I would go to heaven (not that any of us know such a thing, but just using your reasoning)? I sincerely repented earlier, but that was before I committed such evil deeds. That brutal torture and murder would be examples of mortal sin.

Eric

Qoheleth · Aug 10, 2004

eightfoot514 said:
Then I go to his house, brutally torture and murder him and his entire family. Then right after that, I drop dead (for whatever reason). Do you think I would go to heaven (not that any of us know such a thing, but just using your reasoning)? I sincerely repented earlier, but that was before I committed such evil deeds. That brutal torture and murer would be examples of mortal sin.

If I say that each sin you mentioned warrants hell, but then tell you that you will go to heaven under both circumstances without asking for forgiveness, that would require that person to have been already saved and admit that only God knows that persons heart.

Can you show me in scripture where one sin, (no matter the degree in this life) unrepented of or otherwise, will keep us from heaven?

eightfoot514 · Aug 10, 2004

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. I provided a list of Bible verses that say people who commit certain sins will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (it's about 4 posts ago). To add to this, like you said, only God knows the heart of a person. For a sin to be mortal, a person must have full knowledge and deliberate consent of the fact that they are turning away from God. If I'm not understanding what you're asking, please clarify for me.

Eric

Qoheleth · Aug 10, 2004

eightfoot514 said:
I provided a list of Bible verses that say people who commit certain sins will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (it's about 4 posts ago).

Eric, I do not see how any of those verses tell us that any particular sin will send us to hell, in fact scripture nowhere says that any sins are held out as unforgivable except one and again that is the sin of unbelief.

What Im asking you is, where in scripture are sins classified as venial or mortal in that if not confessed, they will damn someone to hell.

eightfoot514 · Aug 10, 2004

Well, the only thing I can add to what has been said is that the sins mentioned in those verses describe sin so heinous that it breaks our relationship with God, and that unless we seek repentence, we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is not to say that the sins are unforgivable, rather, that we must sincerely be sorry for them and seek forgiveness.

Matthew 19:17-19 - "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

1 John 2:3-6 - We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Clearly from scripture, there are things we can do that will cut us off, but God is always there, waiting for us to repent. "Mortal" and "venial" sin is not a legalistic classification of certain sins, rather, "mortal sin" is when we turn away from God. As humans, we will surely fall from time to time, but God provides the grace we need to overcome sin and turn back to Him.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Eric

P.S. I am starting to feel we are going in circles here...

SPALATIN · Aug 10, 2004

Qoheleth said:
How do we "passively receive", how is this done? In your not "rejecting" of the gift, are you not then "accepting" the gift.

In other words, If I am not actively rejecting, which is within my power as you say, am I not with volition, actively accepting? If not please explain.

Let me illustrate.

Say it is your birthday and you invite your friends and they each bring a gift as is the custom. The gifts are yours automatically. YOu don't need to accept them. Just as what Jesus did for you is a gift. John 3:16 explains why. We are called as believers to repent of our sins and be Baptized.

Qoheleth · Aug 10, 2004

eightfoot514 said:
Well, the only thing I can add to what has been said is that the sins mentioned in those verses describe sin so heinous that it breaks our relationship with God,

These verses do not say that are relationship with God is broke, not at all. I feel you are putting meaning into them that are not there.

eightfoot514 said:
Clearly from scripture, there are things we can do that will cut us off

Okay, please direct me to the scripture that says that this sin or that sin cuts us off so far from God (loss of salvation) that we are lost without hope unless we confess to a priest or pastor.

The other verses you provide have nothing to do with sin and its affect in regard to confession. I am sorry but I dont see why put them forth for this topic and further they speak of obedience to the lords commands

Qoheleth · Aug 10, 2004

SLStrohkirch said:
Say it is your birthday and you invite your friends and they each bring a gift as is the custom. The gifts are yours automatically. YOu don't need to accept them. Just as what Jesus did for you is a gift. John 3:16 explains why. We are called as believers to repent of our sins and be Baptized.

So the Gospel (the offer of salvation) is the gift, and this gift is given by means of the word, i.e. scripture. "Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word..."

So when I hear the Gospel, the gift (salvation) is automatically mine. All I can do is reject it, I do nothing to receive it.

Well if all men, without distinction and no matter their disposition towards the word, are "dead in their sins" and "not one is righteous,all have fallen short", then why or how is this automatic gift apprehended. Wouldnt we all be saved that have heard the Good News (Gospel) no matter what.

If the gift is automatic, would not the Holy spirit be able to effect conviction and begin the salvatory process the same in each individual since we are all equals in sin?

artofwar · Aug 11, 2004

What sort of sin is sexual sin? I would say it is Mortal

Mother Vashti · Aug 11, 2004

It's important to your own spiritual health to confess your sins. Just don't confess them to someone unworthy to hear them (judgemental, apathetic, contemptuous, etc.)

Qoheleth · Aug 11, 2004

artofwar said:
What sort of sin is sexual sin? I would say it is Mortal

Out of curiousity, why do you say this?

It's important to your own spiritual health to confess your sins. Just don't confess them to someone unworthy to hear them (judgemental, apathetic, contemptuous, etc.)

I would agree with that

artofwar · Aug 11, 2004

Out of curiousity, why do you say this?

Paul seems to highlight sexual sin quite differently to other sin

eightfoot514 · Aug 11, 2004

Qoheleth said:
Okay, please direct me to the scripture that says that this sin or that sin cuts us off so far from God (loss of salvation) that we are lost without hope unless we confess to a priest or pastor.

Ohhhh, we were still talking about Confession? Now I think I see where all the confusion was coming from. I was only trying to explain that there is sin so serious (which Catholics call "mortal sin") that we must repent of, even if we've already asked for forgiveness of sins earlier in life before we fell back into sin. I was just taking it one step at a time, not even trying to involve Confession, just that mortal sin exists.

Well, simply put, it's not in Scripture specifically that we must confess our sins to a priest. However, bear in mind that the Scriptures aren't a complete package of everything in Christian doctrine. The gospels are narratives of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. Acts provides a small history of some of the events in the early Church. Paul's letters are letters of encouragement and doctrinal reprovals to specific Churches of specific regions, etc. None of the books provide a list saying "this is everything we believe: ... " Also, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Scripture is the only source of authority and doctrine. In fact, such a teaching is contrary to the Bible. The Bible admits that not everything is recorded in it.

John 20:30 Now Jesus did many others signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book.

John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Also, Paul warned Christians to hold fast to the traditions handed down to them.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 We instruct you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

This tradition that Paul speaks of is the Sacred teachings of the Church. He refers to the teachings of the Church as "the word of God."

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, your received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.

The authority of the Apostles is passed on to their successors, the bishops. The role of the bishop is described as being a shepherd of the Church, guarding the flock and preserving the true faith. In fact, the word for bishop, episkopos, is the same word used to designate Jesus when Peter describes Jesus as our Guardian.

1 Peter 2:24-25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian [episkopos] of your souls.

Titus 1:7-9 For a bishop [episkopos] as Gods steward must be blameless, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and refute opponents.

Titus 2:15 Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

I have provided all of this to show that the Church preserves the true message and it teaches sound doctrine, because it is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. The Church, from the beginning of its existance, has always taught that one must confess serious sin. Jesus said to Peter and the Apostles, "If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:15-18)." Also, right before He ascended into heaven, Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to bind and loose sins.

John 20:21-23 Jesus said to the disciples, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Christ conferred the authority to forgive sins, but he did not provide the abilibty to read the minds of those who wish their sins to be forgiven.

Later in Scripture, Paul speaks of himself and the other clergy in the Church as being the ministers of Christ and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. Then, Paul speaks of the ministry of Reconciliation.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Thus should one regard us as the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Confession has always been a Sacred Teaching of the Church, and it has been handed down from Jesus and the Apostles. Early records and letters of the Church demonstrate consistent teaching on Confession.

The Didache, A.D. 70 - Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lords Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.

Letter of Barnabas, A.D. 74 - You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.

St. Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, A.D. 90 - Submit yourselves to the prebyters (1 Peter 5:5 - Be subject to the presbyters), and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue.

There are many more letters and records describing Confession in the early Church. This is just to name a few, and I thought I'd stick to before 100 A.D.

Eric

herev · Aug 11, 2004

Qoheleth said:
Simply put (for sake of discussion), why would we ever confess a wrong (sin) to another individual or for that matter to God himself if we are already forgiven?

for many reasons to both

Qoheleth said:
Do you confess to a priest or pastor--why or why not?

no, but I would if I needed counseling on a subject and confession and "ownership" of the sin was necessary

Qoheleth said:
Do you confess to an injured party due to an action on your part?

usually, I try to

Qoheleth said:
Do you confess current sins to a fellow Christian bothers or sisters?

only if I need an accountability partner for something

Qoheleth said:
Have you ever confessed a sin to a congregation?

Yes, as a Pastor, I belive that there are times when it is necessary for me to confess a wrong I may have committed against them. And, while this is probably not what you are talking about, there have been rare occassions that I needed to "confess" a sin as a means of illustrating a point

Qoheleth said:
Are any of the above situations wrong, encouraged or forbidden by scripture?

no, yes, no
in my humble opinion, to confess simply means to agree with. I confess I am a sinner to God to agree with what he said on the matter and to stress my need for Christ's sacrifice.
I confess my sins to others I have wronged becasue Jesus said we should make peace before coming to the altar, plus it just makes life easier
Other than that, Jesus' death is sufficient for my salvation, confession (other than that listed 2 sentences back) is not necessary

Qoheleth · Aug 11, 2004

eightfoot514 said:
Also, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Scripture is the only source of authority and doctrine. In fact, such a teaching is contrary to the Bible. The Bible admits that not everything is recorded in it.

Thank you for your explanation but I really do not wish to change the focus of the thread and make it into a Scripture/Tradition thread although I see that this will be impossible with my RC and Orthodox friends.

Your position would be that if one does not confess "mortal" sin and only to a priest, the sin cannot be forgiven and therefor the person will not be in communion with God and lose his salvation. Is this correct?

Well, in light of your beliefs (and I do appreciate them), this is what I find regarding confession in the scripture as it relates to the RCC doctrine:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

David confessed his sins to God when he prayed:

"Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." Psalm 51:2-3

Here is why true Christians have access to God' s throne:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." Hebrews 10:19

Because of the sinless blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross, we have the authority to go straight to the throne of God for forgiveness.

The "first pope's" example

In the book of Acts, a man named Simon came to the alleged first pope, Peter, wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. How did Peter respond to this sin? Did he suggest that Simon make a confession to him right there? No, Peter told him to repent and confess his sin to God and ask God to forgive him. (See Acts 8:18-22).

Can priests forgive sins?

The second part of this doctrine suggests that Catholic priests have the power to forgive sins:

"Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ." Pg. 374, #1495 (See also Pg. 364 #1448)

Here, too, Catholic doctrine conflicts/opposes God's Word:

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man. (See Pg. 365, #1456). But the Bible recognizes only one mediator:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5

Qoheleth · Aug 11, 2004

herev said:
"ownership" of the sin was necessary

What does this mean to you, please elaborate.

herev said:
only if I need an accountability partner for something

When do you feel this would be needed?

eightfoot514 · Aug 11, 2004

Qoheleth said:
Thank you for your explanation but I really do not wish to change the focus of the thread and make it into a Scripture/Tradition thread although I see that this will be impossible with my RC and Orthodox friends.

Thank you for recognizing that as Catholics (and Orthodox Christians), Scripture and Tradition are both very integral parts when dealing with Christianity. One cannot have Scripture without Tradition, since Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition.

Qoheleth said:
Your position would be that if one does not confess "mortal" sin and only to a priest, the sin cannot be forgiven and therefor the person will not be in communion with God and lose his salvation. Is this correct?

No, this is not exactly correct. Realize that the Church teaches that a person is forgiven the instant they repent, but they should confess serious sin as soon as they can in order to restore their relationship back with the Church, since sin not only harms the individual, but also the Church, which is the body of Christ.

Qoheleth said:
Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man.

The priest is not a mediator, for we have only one mediator, Jesus. Rather, the priest is a visible sign of assurance that God forgives us. The matter of "binding and loosing sins" is more a matter of the priest recognizing whether or not the confessor is sincere, and if he suspects that the person is not sincere (because of a cavalier or careless attitude about sin, etc.), he should warn the person that they may be in spiritual danger. However, true repentence is between the confessor and God. The priest, the "minisiter of Christ (1 Corinthians 4:1)," merely acts "on behalf of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20)," by giving the confessor advice, instructing the confessor to pray for forgiveness, and by assuring the confessor that his sins are forgiven if he truly repents. This process of unburdening is not only a means of grace, but it is also theraputic. It helps us recognize the sin in our lives, and we resolve to turn away from sin with God's help.

Eric

To confess or not to confess our transgressions ??

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