To all, but particularly ELCA and ELCIC members; What are your thoughts?

seajoy · May 21, 2008

DaRev said:
Well, I guess it appears that I'm pretty much alone in my convictions. I'll just stick to God's inspired inerrant word as the source and norm of my teaching and practice. I know I can't go wrong with that.

Ciao

No, you are not alone in your convictions. This is how I look at this sin of homosexuality. I think most of the proclaimed homosexuals choose to be that way from either an abusive upbringing, or coersed into it because of a desire to be loved.....which instead is really a self loathing. Without Christ, they have no resilience against the wyles of satan, thus will turn to any abomination without angst.

Also, I do think a very few are born with this tendency because of sin in the world, just as addicts are born with the desire to drink or take drugs. It does not mean that one should continue sinning by drinking and saying "I was just born this way". Even after one stops drinking though, and repents, it's still a daily struggle that can only be fought with God's almighty hand.

The Christians who continue to live in the sin of homosexuality, are not trusting that God knows what's best for them, and will help them in their struggles. Instead they just pretend it's alright. This is living in denial of one's sin, and the outcome is quite frightening.

Don't say chio just yet, my friend. I think we are on the same page. I may be incorrect. If I am, help me know where I'm off base.

Thanks

BabyLutheran · May 21, 2008

I am just thankful that Jesus came to save me from myself. I am a much bigger sinner than most any gay person.

LutherNut · May 21, 2008

There is a HUGE difference between someone who struggles with sin and yet is truly contrite and repentant, seeking God's forgiveness and someone who refuses to recognize their actions as sinful when they clearly are and yet are completely unrepentant and demands that their sin be considered "normal".

Anyone who is ordained into the public ministry must be above reproach. This does not mean one who struggles and yet is truly repentant, but the one who blatantly ignores God's word on the matter and denies the work of God. Such a man has no business being in the ministry, regardless of the specific sin.

Edial · May 21, 2008

LutherNut said:
There is a HUGE difference between someone who struggles with sin and yet is truly contrite and repentant, seeking God's forgiveness and someone who refuses to recognize their actions as sinful when they clearly are and yet are completely unrepentant and demands that their sin be considered "normal".

Anyone who is ordained into the public ministry must be above reproach. This does not mean one who struggles and yet is truly repentant, but the one who blatantly ignores God's word on the matter and denies the work of God. Such a man has no business being in the ministry, regardless of the specific sin.

I agree with this.

Sin will be sin and often does not cease.
Some, including myself, were very successful in addressing certain temptations in the beginning of their Christian lives (in the case of adult converts) and then fell back into them.

I think the reason we fell was because we somehow became overly confident and thought we knew the Scriptures.

I remember I was talking very strongly that "Christ saves completely!".

I was saying that because I stopped a certain lifestyle that was sinful.
Well. apparently I was incorrect.
Oh, Christ does save completely, but sin keeps us humble.
At least, that is the "design" of sin in the lives of the believers - to keep us from boasting and being harsh.

Oh, there are plenty of people that justify their sin. And this is silly.
Some call it a rebellion, I call it just being silly.

Sin is sin. We struggle. We look at God's mercy and do not understand why He does not remove it.

Sometimes He does, sometimes He does not.

Yet I do know that God works for the best in each of us.
He can use even a deadly sin to teach us good and save us regardless of anything we "do".

God is the perfect Teacher. He can use all in order to edify us.

Sin is not the problem, since there will be no sin in Heaven and Christ paid for our sins.

The problem is our "justification" of it. THAT what keeps us from Heaven.

And THAT is what Satan teaches us.

Thanks,
Ed

Edial · May 21, 2008

DaRev said:
Well, I guess it appears that I'm pretty much alone in my convictions. I'll just stick to God's inspired inerrant word as the source and norm of my teaching and practice. I know I can't go wrong with that.

Ciao

I was also with you in your convictions some 17 years ago.

But life showed me otherwise, my friend.

I know some that stopped from certain sins - desire was plainly taken away.
I know others when the desire was not taken away.
And they struggle.

Both are strong believers.

The LORD does work in mysterious ways.

He allows sin for our own good and He restrains sin also for our own good.

It is how we react to it. This is important.

Being in someone else's body and mind, we do not understand.
But God understands - He became a man.

Homosexual acts are wrong, so are other acts and thoughts and deeds and attitudes.

I just beg everyone not to deny what sin is. I practically beg them.
And if we admit the sin, we could always confess.

The great hospital that we call church needs many nurses and counselors.
God is the doctor.

Thanks,
Ed

BabyLutheran · May 21, 2008

The last 3 posts really are excellent.

DaRev · May 21, 2008

LutherNut said:
There is a HUGE difference between someone who struggles with sin and yet is truly contrite and repentant, seeking God's forgiveness and someone who refuses to recognize their actions as sinful when they clearly are and yet are completely unrepentant and demands that their sin be considered "normal".

Anyone who is ordained into the public ministry must be above reproach. This does not mean one who struggles and yet is truly repentant, but the one who blatantly ignores God's word on the matter and denies the work of God. Such a man has no business being in the ministry, regardless of the specific sin.

Exactly!!!!!!

BreadAlone · May 21, 2008

If a homosexual is truly repentant, then he/she will no longer be homosexual.

I couldn't agree more. If a person is repentant of their sin, the blood of Jesus purifies them and places them in the ranks of the righteous. People may get all technical and say they are still "homosexually oriented," but IMHO they are no longer homosexuals..

I'd say it is the same as someone who is repentant of their sin of lying. They may slip up once in a while, but I wouldn't call them a liar. (Perhaps this isn't what you meant Rev, but that's what I agree with. )

More towards the OP: truly sad when Lutheranism goes as far as to accept people who reject God as their leaders. Truly sad.

Willy · May 21, 2008

I couldn't disagree more.

PreachersWife2004 · May 21, 2008

Willy said:
I couldn't disagree more.

Hmm...there's a shocker.

Anyway, I find it sad that I have to preface anything I say about homosexuality with a disclaimer that I feel the same way about any type of unrepentant sinner. Somehow, I can call out a sin as long as it's not homosexuality, otherwise I'm labeled a homophobe.

The article just points to another step close to Jesus' return. I imagine we'll be hearing about much worse in the coming years.

Come soon, Lord Jesus. Come soon.

BreadAlone · May 21, 2008

PreachersWife2004 said:
Hmm...there's a shocker.

Anyway, I find it sad that I have to preface anything I say about homosexuality with a disclaimer that I feel the same way about any type of unrepentant sinner. Somehow, I can call out a sin as long as it's not homosexuality, otherwise I'm labeled a homophobe.

The article just points to another step close to Jesus' return. I imagine we'll be hearing about much worse in the coming years.

Come soon, Lord Jesus. Come soon.

You homophobic fundamentalist racist hater! You are not even American, supporting your Right-wing views! How dare you envoke your Constitutional 1st ammendment rights in my presence! (Sorry, it's just so nice NOT to have people doing that here. Despite how liberal some people may seem in this thread, you aint seen nothin till you've spent a good quality of time in the Debates on Homosexuality forum.)

On a serious note,
Good point there PW..there's always good news mixed with the bad.

Revelation 22:10-21 said:
Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

seajoy · May 21, 2008

Good verses BA

Tofferer · May 21, 2008

Willy said:
I couldn't disagree more.

Well, start with Genesis 1 & 2 and work your way forward. You will quickly see that homosexuality is NOT God's standard. It is a perversion of the standard. Further, a truly repentant individual will not continue in a particular sin willfully. Certainly they will still struggle with it, but it will not rule or define them. However, to continue in the sin and to deny that it is a sin will certainly result in pain, angst, and could even result in eternal damnation.

In simple terms, let God be God. He wrote the moral law, let us obey it.

seajoy · May 21, 2008

Tofferer said:
Well, start with Genesis 1 & 2 and work your way forward. You will quickly see that homosexuality is NOT God's standard. It is a perversion of the standard. Further, a truly repentant individual will not continue in a particular sin willfully. Certainly they will still struggle with it, but it will not rule or define them. However, to continue in the sin and to deny that it is a sin will certainly result in pain, angst, and could even result in eternal damnation.

In simple terms, let God be God. He wrote the moral law, let us obey it.

IMHO, one of the best posts you have ever made.

Melethiel · May 22, 2008

LutherNut said:
There is a HUGE difference between someone who struggles with sin and yet is truly contrite and repentant, seeking God's forgiveness and someone who refuses to recognize their actions as sinful when they clearly are and yet are completely unrepentant and demands that their sin be considered "normal".

Anyone who is ordained into the public ministry must be above reproach. This does not mean one who struggles and yet is truly repentant, but the one who blatantly ignores God's word on the matter and denies the work of God. Such a man has no business being in the ministry, regardless of the specific sin.

I agree with this.

MarkRohfrietsch · May 22, 2008

BreadAlone, thanks for the Quote from Revelations.

Tofferer said:
Well, start with Genesis 1 & 2 and work your way forward. You will quickly see that homosexuality is NOT God's standard. It is a perversion of the standard. Further, a truly repentant individual will not continue in a particular sin willfully. Certainly they will still struggle with it, but it will not rule or define them. However, to continue in the sin and to deny that it is a sin will certainly result in pain, angst, and could even result in eternal damnation.

In simple terms, let God be God. He wrote the moral law, let us obey it.

Well said. With any sin, when we repent, the temptations are there. These temptations, or the struggle with them do diminish in time, but they are still there. On occasion we will also fall, but the Lord is there to pick us up again with his Holy Spirit.

"The old Adam is to be drowned in us by daily contrition..." Luther.

PreachersWife2004 · May 22, 2008

Paul always talked about fighting his temptations. It's not like once we enter God's fold we'll never be tempted to sin again.

The saying is "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". I think this tends to be true with a lot of different vices in this world, sex included. We may win the struggle over our temptations, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what we are. It is our cross to bear. With God's help we can overcome these temptations but they'll always be there.

Willy · May 22, 2008

PreachersWife2004 said:
Hmm...there's a shocker.

Anyway, I find it sad that I have to preface anything I say about homosexuality with a disclaimer that I feel the same way about any type of unrepentant sinner. Somehow, I can call out a sin as long as it's not homosexuality, otherwise I'm labeled a homophobe.

The article just points to another step close to Jesus' return. I imagine we'll be hearing about much worse in the coming years.

Come soon, Lord Jesus. Come soon.

I don't have any need to call you a homophobe. I do have a need to point out that frequently when we don't want to deal with our own issues, own our own stuff, we will project things on other people. Some folks don't want to own their own homosexual attractions. So it's just easier to make gays into the problem. For me, this subject is not an abstract philosophical issue. It deals with real people who have real concerns and struggles. I think that better quoting Bible passages out of context (Biblical context and social context) is listening to the stories of gay and lesbian people. Hearing their real stories may indeed change our hearts.

Zecryphon · May 22, 2008

Willy said:
I don't have any need to call you a homophobe. I do have a need to point out that frequently when we don't want to deal with our own issues, own our own stuff, we will project things on other people. Some folks don't want to own their own homosexual attractions. So it's just easier to make gays into the problem. For me, this subject is not an abstract philosophical issue. It deals with real people who have real concerns and struggles. I think that better quoting Bible passages out of context (Biblical context and social context) is listening to the stories of gay and lesbian people. Hearing their real stories may indeed change our hearts.

So we should be led by our emotions instead of the clear teachings of scripture? Do you really think that's wise? What happens every time a person follows their heart instead of doing what God wants? Ends in disaster, doesn't it?

LilLamb219 · May 22, 2008

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that God's Word doesn't matter as much as what other people might say...just because they're hurting? Doesn't make sense. God calls homosexual acts an abomination according to the book of Leviticus. We can't change that just because someone doesn't want to hear it. It doesn't work that way.

To all, but particularly ELCA and ELCIC members; What are your thoughts?

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