• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
muffler dragon said:
That doesn't answer my questions.

I would appreciate it if you would just answer my questions in the post.

Better yet, just answer this: were Y'shua, Sha'ul and the Apostles Torah-observant Jews?
you tell me.
Something I note there is that Jesus didnt say ''youre wrong'' or ''you are misinterpreting the law'' as a defense.

He seems to be in agreement with them that His disciples are doing something unlawful on the sabbath in his defense of them by using Davids eating the showbread which wasnt lawful either.
Was Jesus a lawbreaker?
Did He condone His disciples breaking of the law?
Or did the law pass with the coming of Johns preaching baptism for the remission of sin as scripture shows?

The Law and the Prophets were until John; from then the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
(Luk 16:16)
John came baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for remission of sins.
(Mar 1:4)
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
YahwehLove said:
you tell me.

Y'shua, Sha'ul and the Apostles were Torah-observant Jews.


Since you ignored Andy's statements earlier, I'm sure this will be nothing but fruitless. Anyway... are you familiar with Oral Torah? Oral Torah is a set of traditions that allows for interpretation of the Written Torah over time. Oral Torah will explain such things as "what is work on Shabbat?", "how to perform an animal sacrifice", "how to kill an animal in a kosher manner." so on and so forth. The majority of what Y'shua dealt with when he was here was correcting people's interpretations of Written Torah. Or in not so many words, he corrected Oral Torah.

Lastly, regarding the showbread and other things like that. In Judaism, any mitzvoh may be broken in order to save a life. There are stipulations to that statement, so don't take it as a blanket. But that is more or less the consideration behind David and the showbread.

YL said:
Was Jesus a lawbreaker?

If Y'shua changed/deleted/added anything to the Torah, then he would be a FALSE Messiah. Therefore, you tell me if you believe he was a lawbreaker.

YL said:
Did He condone His disciples breaking of the law?

See above statement.

YL said:
Or did the law pass with the coming of Johns preaching baptism for the remission of sin as scripture shows?

Your rhetorical question is offered in ridicule.

One thing to keep in mind: if the Torah passed away with Yochanan's preaching of baptism; then the majority of Y'shua's words and actions are void of meaning. And furthermore, you would be espousing a FALSE Messiah.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
Sorry, but the text is plain.
I probably didnt ignore andys post, but may not have agreed with it.

The fact remains that Jesus used Davids breaking of the Law in His defense when all He had to do was explain the situation.

The FACT is that the scripture shows very clearly the the Law and the prophets WERE until John.

The fact is the Jews are practicing a covenant that no longer exists.

you have ignored every piece of scripture I have offered so I assume you no longer need to respond to my posts.

You say that the law may be broken to safe a life, So why didnt JESUS just say that?
AND WHY didnt the pharisees KNOW that?
Werent THEY more knowledgable about their own law than you or andy are?


.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
muffler dragon said:
One thing to keep in mind: if the Torah passed away with Yochanan's preaching of baptism; then the majority of Y'shua's words and actions are void of meaning. And furthermore, you would be espousing a FALSE Messiah.
This is absurd. It makes no sense.
with YOUR understanding of scripture He might be a false messiah, but with my understanding it is all very harmonious.
He is the Son of God. Not some cornerstore rabbi.

Please just make your assertions and then support them.
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
My short summary of the situation.


YL post #81 said:
The purpose of the tithe is irrelevant.

How it worked, who it supported, how it was implemented....its all irrelevant now.




I have discussed the purpose of the tithe: who it was for, why it was implemented, and the parameters surrounding it. I have sufficiently stated through this thread (and others) why the tithe is irrelevant today. All superflous discussions now cease from my interaction. I will continue to point back to this post.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
And now you see why a formal debate would have been a waste of time

I understand the purpose of the tithe and how it worked.
Now if I could just get you to accept the very clear scripture that shows that that covenant has passed we could move on.

All you been sufficient at is showing the way the tithe worked UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
Regarding Israels (the nation) current state:
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
YahwehLove said:
I understand the purpose of the tithe and how it worked.
All you been sufficient at is showing the way the tithe worked UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.

YL post #81 said:
The purpose of the tithe is irrelevant.

How it worked, who it supported, how it was implemented....its all irrelevant now.

I think you answered this for me.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
muffler dragon said:
I think you answered this for me.
Well, I wanted to make a comment, but you seem to have went back thru the thread for some reason and put "+" in place of most of your comments, so I have no idea where one of your statements was at.

I wanted to present something to you about the new covenant.
You remarked earlier that the new covenant was for Isreal (the nation), would you care to re-explain this for me a bit?
If you care to continue this, I have a point to make and will give scripture to back it up, but I need what you presented earlier.

one question tho, why did you go back thru the thread and delete so much of your posts?
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
Well, indirectly our discussion has a lot to do with the tithe.
from your pov of view, it would still be intact if the Temple stood.
From mine, it passed with Jesus death ratifying the New Covenant.

I dont think it was necessary to delete everything you typed.
We've been on a side topic that would directly affect ones view of the tithe and the whole law actually.
If they could warn you over anything youve done in this thread, then Im in the wrong forums here for discussion.
 
Upvote 0

FreeSpiritFaith

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2004
2,918
2
39
Michigan
Visit site
✟18,082.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Democrat
Tithing is not what is important to god, and this situation makes me mad. That pastor was screwing you over. The bible says that pastors are not supposed to expect money for their services. They can ask for donations, but they are not to require payment. I will find the scripture to prove this. Tithing is not needed for any gift of God. Thats why they are gifts. I would like to give this so called pastor a piece of my mind. Seek a pastor that REALLY serves God.
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Dear FreeSpiritFaith:

I think you'll find more than enough support for a non-tithing situation on this thread.

If you would like some more details, I would be more than willing to assist you.

m.d.
 
Upvote 0

Unnamed Servant

Active Member
Aug 2, 2004
188
25
39
Powell, TN/ Louisville, Ky
✟453.00
Faith
Baptist
I have tried to read most of those post of this topic, but have not read all.

I was wondering if anyone had talked about how if our lives are given over to Christ, our desires and possesions will follow.

Do I think tithing is biblical? Not necessarily, I believe if you are a true believer of Christ you have given him control of everything, including all of your money.

Your heart will be shown by how you used what God has blessed you.

I personally believe, from my relationship with Christ, that if you Love the lord and not his blessings, you will give above and beyond 10%, because of your love for his work and the advancement of his ministry.

Love-In-Christ,

Unnamed Servant
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Unnamed Servant said:
I was wondering if anyone had talked about how if our lives are given over to Christ, our desires and possesions will follow.

That's kind of a side-light consideration to the OP. See, I have no problem with offerings or almsgiving. My beef is with the present-day tithe doctrine.

Unnamed Servant said:
I believe if you are a true believer of Christ you have given him control of everything, including all of your money.

Your heart will be shown by how you used what God has blessed you.

Pretty solid points.
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
amen
TRUE New covenant giving
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi all

I am pretty discouraged with what I see in the churches these days so I chose to manage my own tithes dirictly, We give to the poor and needy and help where we can in the community always making sure the recepients understand that they are receiving this not because we are so wonderful but because this is how Jesus wants us to behave towards one another,

We usually wind up with lots of people also coming to us for bible studies to learn more about Christ because of this also,

I am sure we are giving{ I really do not keep track} enough because lots of our Christian friends think we are pretty stupid because of how much we give out and how many poor people are always at our house,

yours in Christ
deu58
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
ONe of the biggest issues with churches having a compulsory tithe, in addition to its not being of this new covenant, is that it doesnt take into account those people who not only shouldnt be giving their childrens food money away, but they themselves should be on the churches list of people to help.
In all my years in church, not one time at a point of need did the church I was in come to my aid.
I did go to a Presbyterian (not even MY church) or something at one point years back when I was unemployed for a short bit and they paid a gas bill for me that was about to be shut off.

I decided, like you, to manage my money myself.
If I see someone in need, I can help them directly and immediately without them having to go thru the process of going to the church and dealing with red tape just to get $100 for food or something.

If someone needs bibles or clothes or gas or rent money, they can be helped quicker by Jesus' followers if they cant give money immediately.

I have a friend, and have heard many say to give it to the church then they will disperse it as needed.
Hogwash.
It goes many times for new pews and carpet instead of feeding the poor in my opinion.

Ill continue to do it this way for the rest of my life.
If I am wrong God will deal with me directly, but praise Him that there might be one less hungry person on the planet for a while.
 
Reactions: Andyman_1970
Upvote 0
P

paeonia

Guest
You are saying exactly what I mentioned above....I agree wholeheartedly with yuo it just makes sense.... (although I think my post went unnoticed for the most part due to all the heated debate in here)
 
Upvote 0

YahwehLove

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2004
1,637
45
✟2,033.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
paeonia said:
You are saying exactly what I mentioned above....I agree wholeheartedly with yuo it just makes sense.... (although I think my post went unnoticed for the most part due to all the heated debate in here)


The man who preaches the gospel is permitted to make his living from the gospel. And it says let the elders who rule be worthy of a double-honor.
I do believe in the body of christ supporting their teachers and servants so that they arent emcumbered with menial secular jobs and can focus strickly on the gospel.

But somewhere along the line that idea got way out of control.
I have a specific year and a specific man in mind as to who to blame, but it would surely cause this thread to go off track again.

If every christian chipped in to provide for the elders and pastor so they could live properly, and then we were always ready with open hands with the rest that we could give to the needy, I daresay that there wuoldnt be any hungry on the streets of the United states at least.
And in my opinion, that is the way it should have been.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.