Tithing??

heron said:

We are set free from the law of sin and death, but Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law.

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Heron states that we must tithe because it is in the Law

Jesus fulfilled the Law. That is why and how we set as free. Because in the Law it was needed a lamb every year, but Jesus fulfilled that and we are free from continuous sacrifice. He set as free from the Law, and Paul tells as to “stand firm” on that freedom and don’t go back to the slavery of the Law.

Any how, if the Law still has to be kept. How many commands do you keep? All the 600, or only tithing?

heron said:

Jesus brought understanding to why God set these precepts in front of us. He taught about the heart of the Law, and challenged religious assumptions.

Along with the heart of the Law of Moses, tithing ensured that poor people were fed. Without it, the poor would be deprived and despised, and some would turn to crime.

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Yes. But he did not mention anything about crhistians thithing. He actually critisised thoese thithing but did not teach the good way of doing it. insted, he he told us that it is not anymore necesary

heron said:

In a community where God's Laws operated without being broken, there would be no sense that Laws were unfair. The laws protected people's rights to health, property, livelihood, and relationships.

The tithe helped support the temple workers, but it was not just about parishioners giving to their local temple. It made sure people could survive in the situations the found themselves.

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Tithing has the porpouse of financing the human organizations that claim to be a church and took that word for themselves. But tithing is not a christian doctrine. Tithing is not biblical. Those organizations called churches, shall tell the members to give 10% of the salary. That will be a good way of finances all activities. If each member contribute with 10% I think it will be enough. But sahll not be in a context of doctrine. You are laying to the members telling them that tithing is something biblical and christians.

heron said:

So when you are thinking about where to tithe when not attending a church, look at organized efforts around you that bring good things into people's lives. Systems that are set up to manage needs, where you might have limited time to take care of needs yourself.

A community that is set up to take care of needs can have increased appreciation, safety, hope, and respect.

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If you are concern about bringing good things to people, why dont you give 10% of your salary. But do not say that tithing is a christian doctrine. Do not give your 10% because the Law, or because Christ, or because the church. And more important, do not force others telling them that they HAVE to tithe.

Nathaniel Ellis said:

Ok so we do not find any mention of thithing 10% in the new testiment. but what do we see. We see believers selling everything they have and giving it to the church. not by law, but volantarally.

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Nor in the OT, not for christians.
We see believers selling everything but we dont se nobody tithing. We dont see nobody tithing. Nobody was tithing.

Nathaniel Ellis said:

so you have two options as a New Testiment believer. to volantarally sell everything you have and give it to the church, or to honor the 10% tithe established by our father Abraham.

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Why too options. How ypo arrive to that. That is human talk, not biblical. Biblically we have forbiden to tihte, it is not a option, tithing is prohibited to christians.

Abraham did not stablish tithe. He did tithe only one time in his entire life. No where we read that he was stablishing a doctrine. It hapens just one time in his life. He never tithe again. No body of his family did ever tithe in the next generations. But if we take her example, we must notice that he did not tithe of his ouw properety or income. He did tithe of belonged to others and he did not have intentions to keep. Abraham is a very bad example of tithing. Issac and Jacob never tithe, why shall we?

Nathaniel Ellis said:

and yes God does rebuke isriel for not tithing. check out my earlyer post.
in revelation we are called the new jeruselem. therefore we must honor our Father in Heaven as they did.

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wrong. that is a great effort to stablish tithing with some biblical base. that makes clear that there is not any other text better than that one.

Johnnz said:

One of the most basic principles of biblical interpretation is the consistency. The interpretation of any one verse must 'fit in' with a) all other verses on the same topic and b) the overall teachings of Scripture.

If we take the saying of Jesus about not abolishing the law then His statement stands on contradiction to the many other scriptures that very clearly state the law is done away with. The key of course are His words 'but to fulfil it". Jesus, as Jew was still under the law at that time, and kept it "Who can accuse me of sin?.." But with his death and resurrection the Mosaic law came to an end. The Old Covenant was over, and a new one was in place, one based on a better priesthood and better promises.

John
NZ

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that is why we can not tithe
that is way tithing is forbithen for christians

Heron and Nathaniel Ellis states that tithe is in the Law
I will keep a record, because, after making clear that keeping the Law is not aloud for Christians, and that tithing is the Law, many will say that it is OK tithing because tithe is not the Law.

Heron and Nathaniel Ellis states that tithe is in the Law

Act 15:28-29
The Holy Spirit and we have agreed not to put any other burden on you besides these necessary rules: eat no food that has been offered to idols; eat no blood; eat no animal that has been strangled; and keep yourselves from sexual immorality.

In Act 15 we found Paul fighting those Christians trying to force the Law into the Christians. It is a long fight of Paul that he brought to Jerusalem, to the Apostles. It is a fight that makes Paul write to the Galatians and it is also is Romans. The answer of the Apostles and the Holy Spirit was to prohibit Christians of keeping the Law. With the exception of very few items. In Galatians Paul goes deeper and explain that Jesus Christ set as free from the slavery of the Law, and request from us to stand firm on that freedom from the Law. He rebuke those that teach to keep the Law. He is clear that it is not possible to keep the Law willingly. If some one choose to keep the Law, automatically became it slave. Not even one single and small law. He teach that who ever try to keep a single law, it is slave of keeping all the Law. And he talk in hard terms:
“it means that Christ is of no use to you at all”
“Those of you who try to be put right with God by obeying the Law have cut yourselves off from Christ”
“You are outside God’s grace”

Keeping one law of the Law is a bad, very bad thing. Firstly it is disobeying the Holy Spirit (quite dangerous). Christ (his dead and resurrection) became useless. That person is cut off from Christ. Fall off the grace.

Doing tithing is keeping the Law. Be warned, Christians at not aloud to tithe.

Do you want to tithe any how? It is up to you. Let me teach you how to tithe.

Tithe was introduced by Moses in a time when money existed. In fact, some tithe, in same cases, can be sell and the money equivalent of the tithe was (according to Moses) to be brought to the Temple. The money issue is very important. Tithe is about land products. Tithe is not about income. Only the land owners were obliged to tithe. And they were obliged to tithe the product of theirs lands. That is because the Levities had no land themselves.

Carpenters, fishermen, soldiers, commerce, musicians and all workers (even those working on the land) were not entitled to tithe. If somebody wants to tithe today, has to do it by having a piece of land of himself and giving the 10% of the production. Nobody else can tithe as Moses teaches. And there is no other teaching about tithing but Moses. Tithing money because it didn’t exist at the time is a big lay. Nobody ever did tithe of the salary.

Also the tithe has to be brought to the Temple, to the levities. A modern church and a today pastor are not entitled to receive tithe.

That, in case you insist in tithing. Bible tithing has nothing to do with bringing the 10% of your money to the church. And Bible tithing is not aloud for Christians.

The NT does not tech abut tithing. Hebrew mentions Abraham tithing but not as an example of what we are supposes to do. Jesus also made a mention on tithing and did it in a very critic way. He clearly mention than that was something that was supposed to be done (in the pass, not any more). The reason of saying that tithing belong to the pass time, is because the levities and his service (for which existed the tithe) were coming to an end.

As I said before; there is not mention at all of people or churches tithing. Not even a single word on that false doctrine. Simply it was not a doctrine at all. But today is probably the most important doctrine. A doctrine without any minimum of biblical support. Only because the modern church has substituted the power of the Holy Spirit for the power of money. Without money, the church cant work, nor exist.

Tithing is a terrible thing. Bring to the Christians a life of no power, away of God and Christ. No blessing, only prosperity. If you tithe, God will make you more rich. If you don’t, God will make that the money you keep, go away some how.

Not only that. If one Christian is honestly convinced to tithe, he is dammed to fail, to sin. As we can read at the beginning of this very tread, Christians fall in the trap of how much to tithe. Is it before or after paying taxes? Does include tips and other benefits or just the basic salary? It is unavoidable that a Christian eventually tithes against his own faith. That day, they sin. They sin by not doing what actually were not supposed to do anyway. But because they believe they have to do it, then they have to do it.

What we have? That pastor teaching to tithe as a doctrine, not only disobey the Holy Spirit (Act 15:28-29), also submerge the Christians in a poor, very poor spiritual life. And they are teachers, no have excuses. They know what are doing, and keep on doing it. Every time they have to preach about tithing they are confronted with the problem of lack of biblical support. And they make an enormous effort to found texts that can distort and used in a meaning don’t have. Those pastor has no excuse.

If the tithe is given with an open heart and no feelings of "manadatoty" it is not a sin nor should anyone judge the persons reason for giving. Are you not living by the rule that old rule should not apply? Tithe is a word meaning 10% f something. you, YOU, made it money. How about time? or Possesions?
Having this discuss is how church denominations are created.

4reel said:

If the tithe is given with an open heart and no feelings of "manadatoty" it is not a sin nor should anyone judge the persons reason for giving. Are you not living by the rule that old rule should not apply? Tithe is a word meaning 10% f something. you, YOU, made it money. How about time? or Possesions?
Having this discuss is how church denominations are created.

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Heron and Nathaniel Ellis states that tithe is in the Law
4reel states that tithing is not a Christian doctrine

I see that we are having some progress. Now you accept the tithing is not a Christian doctrine, that there is not any text on the NT neither in the OT that teach Christians to tithe.

You want to foolish God by tithing pretending you are not. Why? Why tithing is so important to you that insist in doing it? There is not way around. If you give 10% freely, from your hart, you are making yourself slave of the Law from your hart and freely. You are freely choosing to be slave.

Paul says:
“Freedom is what we have—Christ has set us free! Stand, then, as free people, and do not allow yourselves to become slaves again.”
And again:
“As for you, my brothers and sisters, you were called to be free. But do not let this freedom become an excuse for…”

And who will receive your tithing? Probably the same pastor that is teaching you lies. Because you have admitted that there is not such a doctrine as your pastor is telling you. Will you give the tithing to a layer, which seeks for your money?

What is the official doctrine on tithe for your Church?

Do you support your church, missionaries, any form of out reach?

Paul is very clear in teaching that we have to give financial support to those dedicated 100% to our service. There is not doubt on that. The curious think is that even teaching that, he still has not a single word on tithing. Yes, Paul teaches that we have to be responsible for maintaining those in our service, but never ever by tithing.

That takes us to the next two issues:


As Christians we are free to do what ever. I can drink a cup of wine, I can go to a rock concert, but if for my brother that is an obstacle, if he is not enough mature, I shall give up my freedom and stop drinking wine and listening to rock and roll.
If you are mature to give to your church and pastor some money, if that is not really tithing in a camouflage, if you really are not tithing, if you understand that tithing is not one of your obligations, then you can do it. But still you have to care of your brother and see how it affects them.
As you can easily read on this thread, there is many brothers that believe that tithing. They believe that still have to keep the Law. For those brothers, you are setting a bad, very bad example. You shall commence immediately to convince them that tithing is absolutely wrong. That is the first and most important thing you have to do.
Otherwise, your argumentation is just another attempt to keep on teaching tithing by trying to foolish God.

The second issue is to check out who are we supporting. Paul said that we have to exam our pastors. Firstly we have to see if he/she is a pastor on the meaning of the NT, or if he/she is a pastor in the modern meaning. Being graduated from a seminar, having a diploma, being hired to take charge of a local church, is not what a pastor is.
If we read Timothy and Thomas, we found out that a NT pastor is somebody in your service. A NT pastor serves the brothers.
A pastor that serves his/her denomination, that is an employee obliged by a higher administration, is not at our service. It is not possible serve tow lords. Eventually the high administration and a specific congregation will enter in conflict. On witch side is the pastor?
Suppose the high administration is implementing a national evangelical program, or is sending a missionary to some country; if the pastor is implementing those programmes into the church, he/she is servicing the administration. He/she is imposing something to the brother that actually is supposed to serve. He/she is acting as the boss, the one in charge, the authority, not the servant.
Think out. Your congregation is sending a mission to Uruguay (my country). They said that it is an evangelistic effort. I have news for you. In Uruguay we know about Christ since the Spanish conquer. Also we have hundred of protestant denominations: Mormons, Witnesses and many Evangelic. Probably we don’t have yet one of that denomination. That means that your denomination is actually in an effort to open a new branch in a territory where the Gospel is widely preached. Don’t get confused: the evangelic efforts are merely an expansion of a denomination.

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18: The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27: The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29: The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God do you follow?

If you give a tenth of your income to the church, that is NOT paying the Biblical tithe. No one has a right to change God's commands to suit what they want it to mean.

Giving a tenth of your income and calling it The Lord's Tithe is an insult to God. The Biblical tithe was ALWAYS on GOD'S INCREASE - the miraculous increase from God of crops and animals, NEVER on man's income. Calling a tenth of your income a Holy tithe cheapens God's tithe and is 100% wrong.

Abram did NOT establish the tithe. Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that didn't even belong to him. How can anyone say that Abram established the tithe when under the Mosaic law God required 1.1% of the war spoils, NOT a tenth.

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus didn’t tithe. Paul didn’t tithe. Peter didn’t tithe.

HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THAT WITH CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENT OR RENT, INCOME TAXES, PROPERTY TAXES, SALES TAXES, ETC?

There is no way to justify making some “principle” out of the Biblical facts and then apply it to Christians today. It is just flat out wrong and makes no sense at all.

Question: How do you give your money (income) to God?

Before answering, please consider the following:

The gospel is FREE to everyone. There is no charge for the gospel.

When you go to a seminar, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to a concert, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to social events, you usually have to pay to attend.

Why does one "go to" church? Maybe for the following reasons:
1. For instruction / education in God's Word
2. To worship The Lord
3. For prayer and/or to pray
4. For entertainment (the music, etc.)
5. For fellowship / socializing

WE go to church so that WE can get instruction and education in God's Word, so that WE can worship The Lord, so that WE can participate in prayer, so that WE can be entertained and enjoy the music, and so that WE can fellowship or socialize.

WE benefit from going to church services. When WE give our offerings, is it not to PAY for what WE have received from the service? Is that giving to God, or is that paying for a service WE have received?

Who is getting the money? Is it God? Or does the money go to PAY for salaries, the building, utilities, etc., ALL of which WE benefit from?

In the Old Testament, God commanded the tithe be paid to HIM, and HE directed the Israelites to take HIS tithe to the Levites. HE gave HIS tithe to the Levites. Offerings to God were heave offerings, or burnt offerings, or wave offerings.

In the New Testament, God does not tell us HOW to give to HIM other than to give to the poor/needy. God did NOT direct HIS gifts be taken to any church. When you give to the church, you are giving to man according to the scriptures.