Tithing:

probinson · Aug 19, 2005

So, I'm slightly confused by this logic. Please clarify something for me: Are you suggesting that the principle of sowing and reaping works for everything except money?

Andyman_1970 · Aug 19, 2005

No, however that is not the focus of the passge you cite in Luke.

StevenL · Aug 19, 2005

Andyman_1970 said:
I would also say it takes a special kind of "gift" to ignore the context in which the Scriptures were given..................

Indeed, it seems that most christian "ministry" today is abundantly blessed with this gift. Even "prophetic", "anointed", ministries.

The teaching of the "tithe" in the church today is about financing the man-made temples masquerading as "temples or houses of God". The "churches" today are NOT the House of God nor are they Temples of God and their self-appointed priests and rulers are NOT of the order of Melchizedek but a perverted continuation of an order that has been been abolished by the Father of the True High Priest.

probinson · Aug 19, 2005

probinson said:
You should expect God to bless you when you give, but you should not "give to get" (with the wrong motives). I hope that makes sense.

This was my main point before we started discussing the scripture in Luke. I think we agree on that point. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Rather than showing me all of your knowledge of the "hidden meaning" of this passage, would the people that are reading this not have been better served by seeing that we actually agree on something?

Andyman_1970 · Aug 19, 2005

probinson said:
..........of the "hidden meaning" of this passage,............

It's not "hidden" it's context, placing a passage in it's holistic understanding of the book that it's in.

If you mean agree on:

You should expect God to bless you when you give, but you should not "give to get" (with the wrong motives). I hope that makes sense.

I don't agree with "should", God is God, He is not obligated to do anything for me. I'm totally with on the motives there bro.

Let me clarify however, my giving or not giving does not determine how God will bless me, if it did then that would mean God loves us conditionally, He doesn't He loves us unconditionally. There is nothing I can do to make God love me any less, there is nothing I can do to make God love me any more, He loves me because that's whe He is (among other things).

probinson · Aug 19, 2005

Andyman_1970 said:
I don't agree with "should", God is God, He is not obligated to do anything for me.

God is obligated to honor His word. In His word, he implemented sowing and reaping. He is obligated to honor this principle.

Andyman_1970 said:
Let me clarify however, my giving or not giving does not determine how God will bless me,

It may not determine how you will be blessed, and it certainly does not change God's love for you. But it will certainly determine if you're financially blessed. If I have a garden and I plant corn, I expect corn to grow. I don't expect tomatoes to pop up out of the ground. What is so wrong with giving (read: sowing) with expectation that God will honor His word? (Again, with the correct motive)

Andyman_1970 said:
if it did then that would mean God loves us conditionally, He doesn't He loves us unconditionally.

I agree that God loves us unconditionally. God loves everyone the same, even the sinner. That doesn't mean that we will all be blessed the same, and our blessing is not an indicator of the amount of love God has for us.

ProAmerican · Aug 19, 2005

swifteagle said:
I agree with you in this, however...

Since Jesus said this...But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." Luke 11:42

How do you come to the conclusion that the Tithe is not a part of the NT covenant?

But didn't Jesus also state that justice and the love of God were the weightier matters of the law?

I believe that Tithing will bring a blessing from God, but do you think that failure to pay tithes will carry with it the Old Testament penalty for not doing so? As the Lord said in Malachi "Ye are under a curse."[for the Jews, who did not pay tithes and offerings, failure to bring all of the tithes and offerings into the storehouse.]

The storehouse being the modern day equivalent of one's local church where one's(and others) gospel needs are met, and where one can participate in the evangelization of the lost.

janny108 · Aug 19, 2005

ProAmerican said:
But didn't Jesus also state that justice and the love of God were the weightier matters of the law?

I believe that Tithing will bring a blessing from God, but do you think that failure to pay tithes will carry with it the Old Testament penalty for not doing so? As the Lord said in Malachi "Ye are under a curse."[for the Jews, who did not pay tithes and offerings, failure to bring all of the tithes and offerings into the storehouse.]

The storehouse being the modern day equivalent of one's local church where one's(and others) gospel needs are met, and where one can participate in the evangelization of the lost.

Jesus said they should not have neglected the weightier matters of the law while tithing. He did not say to choose which was was more important. Both are important. Some people have even said they have their "own" storehouse. But God says to bring the money into HIS storehouse.

Jan

ProAmerican · Aug 19, 2005

janny108 said:
Jesus said they should not have neglected the weightier matters of the law while tithing. He did not say to choose which was was more important. Both are important. Some people have even said they have their "own" storehouse. But God says to bring the money into HIS storehouse.

Jan

I agree with you. Both are important. But, Jesus stated, that Justice and Mercy were the weightier matters of the law. Weightier than paying tithes. One must pay their tithes, in my opinion, but Jesus stated that there were weightier things than paying tithes.

Does a T.V. evangelist's ministry constitute a "storehouse" in your opinion - one worthy of tithes? Especially concerning those who can physically attend church?

swifteagle · Aug 19, 2005

ProAmerican said:
But didn't Jesus also state that justice and the love of God were the weightier matters of the law?

I believe that Tithing will bring a blessing from God, but do you think that failure to pay tithes will carry with it the Old Testament penalty for not doing so? As the Lord said in Malachi "Ye are under a curse."[for the Jews, who did not pay tithes and offerings, failure to bring all of the tithes and offerings into the storehouse.]

The storehouse being the modern day equivalent of one's local church where one's(and others) gospel needs are met, and where one can participate in the evangelization of the lost.

First of all, Jesus didn't say, "stop tithing and do the mercy and justice". He said, "These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone".

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Just because something is institued in the the Old Testament doesn't mean that it automatically becomes abolished in the New Testament. Jesus has the opportunity to tell the Pharisees that they no longer need to tithe, but does He do that, NO! He tells them you ought to do it (tithe) but don't neglect the mercy & justice (which of course they were totally deficit in).

Do I think that the curse of Malachi applies today? Yes, because I believe that neglecting to tithe is still robbing God of HONOR. You know this is much more about honor than it is about money. Money represents our life. It takes our life to produce money. Our time & energy. God wants us to acknowledge His sovereignty in everything we do. Why do you think this thread is such a hot topic? Because many would like to insist that they don't have to tithe because it is too hard to part with the money. Oh, I know all the arguments, but they don't add up.

So, I will continue to give my tithes and offerings and those opposed with continue to give whatever they wish. I am not convinced that what I believe is wrong nor would I teach others that tithing is not for today. I stand on the Word of God.

swifteagle ><>

janny108 · Aug 19, 2005

Storehouse? Hmm. If a person truly cannot get out of the house to go to church I'd say if he/she wants to contribute to that storehouse it's better than rationalizing and keeping your tithe, especially if they are being blessed by the tv preachers. I've done that in the past. :.) I have a friend who had surgery and she's been confined for awhile, so yeah, there are certainly exceptions to going to church.

Yes I agree with the weightier matters of the law, but I'm sure there would be people to sort of rationalize and say great I just need to do this, and not tithe, since it is not a "weightier " matter of the law.

Jan

Andyman_1970 · Aug 19, 2005

probinson said:
God is obligated to honor His word. In His word, he implemented sowing and reaping. He is obligated to honor this principle.

Jesus says in Matthew 7 all I have to do is ask God, I dont need to put a down payment in so He can pay me the rest

probinson said:
But it will certainly determine if you're financially blessed.

My financial blessings are not incumbent on what I do for God, He is not a cosmic vending machine. The ONLY reason God blesses us is so we can bless others (that whole being Jesus hands and feet), not so we can store up treasures here on earth.

probinson said:
I agree that God loves us unconditionally. God loves everyone the same, even the sinner. That doesn't mean that we will all be blessed the same, and our blessing is not an indicator of the amount of love God has for us.

First, in Matthew Jesus says that God brings the rain (a blessing in those days) to those who dont even love God.

Many of the WOFers I know where I live would sharpy disagree with your last sentence, to them having a bunch of bling is an indication of Gods love for them.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 19, 2005

janny108 said:
it's better than rationalizing and keeping your tithe,

Except that according to God's Holy Word (Deut. 14) He says once a year keep your tithe and consume it, even go buy some "strong drink" and have a party...............how many "must tithe" preachers teach that passge????

ProAmerican · Aug 19, 2005

swifteagle said:
First of all, Jesus didn't say, "stop tithing and do the mercy and justice". He said, "These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone".

Just because something is institued in the the Old Testament doesn't mean that it automatically becomes abolished in the New Testament. Jesus has the opportunity to tell the Pharisees that they no longer need to tithe, but does He do that, NO! He tells them you ought to do it (tithe) but don't neglect the mercy & justice (which of course they were totally deficit in).

Do I think that the curse of Malachi applies today? Yes, because I believe that neglecting to tithe is still robbing God of HONOR. You know this is much more about honor than it is about money. Money represents our life. It takes our life to produce money. Our time & energy. God wants us to acknowledge His sovereignty in everything we do. Why do you think this thread is such a hot topic? Because many would like to insist that they don't have to tithe because it is too hard to part with the money. Oh, I know all the arguments, but they don't add up.

So, I will continue to give my tithes and offerings and those opposed with continue to give whatever they wish. I am not convinced that what I believe is wrong nor would I teach others that tithing is not for today. I stand on the Word of God.

swifteagle ><>

Whoa, whoa, settle down.

Hey, I pay my tithes as well, but, as Jesus said, there are weightier things than paying tithes. What I dislike is so much emphasis on paying tithes. One will be blessed by God for paying tithes, but there is too much emphasis on it in the modern church. That doesn't mean, though, that ministers shouldn't speak on one paying their tithes. They should.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 19, 2005

swifteagle said:
Do I think that the curse of Malachi applies today? Yes, because I believe that neglecting to tithe is still robbing God of HONOR.

So I guess you take your grain/produce/animals to Jerusalem and hand it to the Levites? Robbing God is not taking care of the needs of those around you (remember Matthew 25:44-46), remember the tithe went to take care of the needs of the poor/fatherless/widow/alien, so when you withhold that youre neglecting these people.

How hard is it for you to understand context? Do you take all of Gods Word that literally and out of context? Do you gouge your eye out when you look at someone lustfully? Do you own a slave? Do you go to the synagogue on the Sabbath? Do you stone those who disobey God? Or do you cut and paste out of Gods Word what works for you? Are you silent in church?

swifteagle said:
You know this is much more about honor than it is about money. Money represents our life. It takes our life to produce money. Our time & energy. God wants us to acknowledge His sovereignty in everything we do. Why do you think this thread is such a hot topic?

Chapter and verse that money represents life in the Bible? All our time and energy is for God, everything you do that is not a sin is for God, we are all ministers in the full time ministry. The idea that one can tithe time as you seem to imply smacks of Gnosticism.

swifteagle said:
Because many would like to insist that they don't have to tithe because it is too hard to part with the money. Oh, I know all the arguments, but they don't add up.

If I tithed Id have a lot more money left at the end of the month rather than give as the Holy Spirit prompts me as I do. Id have a lot more at the end of the month if I didnt do as John the Baptist said and when I have two of something I give to one who doesnt have any. Since you have yet to cite Scripture that indicates the switch of the tithe I would say your argument does not add up.

swifteagle said:
So, I will continue to give my tithes and offerings and those opposed with continue to give whatever they wish. I am not convinced that what I believe is wrong nor would I teach others that tithing is not for today. I stand on the Word of God.

Except that your understanding of the tithe is a false teaching and twisting Gods Holy Word.

So yet again I ask, when did the tithe switch from what God specifically defined it as to what it has turned into today? Please cite me chapter and verse, otherwise youre not standing on the Word of God, youre standing on the shifting sands of the false teachings of man.

ProAmerican · Aug 19, 2005

janny108 said:
Storehouse? Hmm. If a person truly cannot get out of the house to go to church I'd say if he/she wants to contribute to that storehouse it's better than rationalizing and keeping your tithe, especially if they are being blessed by the tv preachers. I've done that in the past. :.) I have a friend who had surgery and she's been confined for awhile, so yeah, there are certainly exceptions to going to church.

Yes I agree with the weightier matters of the law, but I'm sure there would be people to sort of rationalize and say great I just need to do this, and not tithe, since it is not a "weightier " matter of the law.

Jan

If one is bedfast, and has a local minister and church who is coming by regularly to meet their gospel needs, i.e. through prayer and such, and they, instead, are sending their tithes to a T.V. preacher I believe that they are giving it to the wrong place.

In fact, if one is going to bring over from the law the paying of tithes, shouldn't one also bring over the modern equivalent of what was then called the "storehouse"?

In Old Testament times, the storehouse constituted two things. One, it was the Temple proper in Jerusalem, and the cities of the Levites. There were many such cities.

Today, one's local "city of the Levites" would be one's local church, not some T.V. preacher.

How some T.V. preachers can say to people that can attend a local congregation, and don't, to send them their tithes is beyond me. It's appaling and unbiblical.

That doesn't mean that someone can't give an offering to a T.V. preacher, over and above what they are paying to their local church in their tithes and offerings.

janny108 · Aug 19, 2005

ProAmerican said:
If one is bedfast, and has a local minister and church who is coming by regularly to meet their gospel needs, i.e. through prayer and such, and they, instead, are sending their tithes to a T.V. preacher I believe that they are giving it to the wrong place.

Yes that would be ideal over giving to someone on TV. But how often does that happen? I don't know. Not all situations are ideal you know? I think it's the heart that counts, especially in those kinds of situations.
Jan

ProAmerican · Aug 19, 2005

janny108 said:
ProAmerican said:

If one is bedfast, and has a local minister and church who is coming by regularly to meet their gospel needs, i.e. through prayer and such, and they, instead, are sending their tithes to a T.V. preacher I believe that they are giving it to the wrong place.

Yes that would be ideal over giving to someone on TV. But how often does that happen? I don't know. Not all situations are ideal you know? I think it's the heart that counts, especially in those kinds of situations.
Jan

Click to expand...

It's the heart that counts?

If one must pay their tithes to the "storehouse" as per what Jesus said to the Pharisees, "do the former[continue paying tithes]...and not neglect the latter[adherence to Justice and Mercy]", then one must also pay their tithes to what would be the New Testament/modern day equivalent of the "storehouse": one's local church. .

It isn't good to stress one area without mentioning the other. Many, if not most, televangelists do just this.

JimB · Aug 19, 2005

It is best to strive to have a generous nature than to meet your 10% obligation. If you are truly generous you will not only be charitable to the collection plate but to everyone else as well.

~Jim

statrei · Aug 19, 2005

Jim M said:
It is best to strive to have a generous nature than to meet your 10% obligation. If you are truly generous you will not only be charitable to the collection plate but to everyone else as well.

~Jim

Tithing has turned out to be the modern way of selfishness. 10% belongs to God and the rest is MINE. What folly.

Listen. The tithe was introduced to support the Levitical priesthood. When the priesthood was abolished the support system also was abolished.

Now, support for the organization you belong to is a different matter. You should do so, but please don't say you are tithing. The word means nothing. If you are tithing because you are afraid you will be smitten if you don't you could just as well throw the money in the street, or send it to me.

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