Tithing:

Andrew · Aug 17, 2005

StevenL said:
What an utter shame that so many Christians have absolutely no understanding of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Or of the difference between the Levitical priesthood and the Priesthood of Melchizedek. It's really no wonder the "church" is in such an abominable state. And some of these who don't have any understanding are "ministers". It's really incredible.....a great horror.

It is precisely Christians who have a deeper understanding and appreciation of the diff betw law and grace, old and new cov, who are able to tithe under grace..

JimB · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
It's not for me to say why tithing doesn't "work" for some people. That's between them and God. It's up to each believer to commune with God and find out why tithing isn't "working" for them.

Keep in mind that no matter how wonderful someone may appear on the outside, we have absolutely no idea what is going on in their heart. Only God knows the heart of the believer. Most people would rather just dismiss tithing as false doctrine than to really examine themselves and see why they're not being blessed. It's a lot easier to say the blessing of tithing has been done away with than to look at yourself and say, maybe this has something to do with me.

I have tithed since I started my part-time job in high school and I have been blessed tremendously because of it. You may argue all you want about how it doesn't work, but you'll never convince me otherwise because I have eaten the pudding, and it is good
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Pete, With all respect, this is a cop-out. It resembles excuses made by would-be healers who say the reason their healing formulas (theology) do not work is because the person being prayed for is to blame for not being healed because they lacked faith. (Of course, that person may be in such pain that faith is extremely difficult to muster at the moment.)

I contend that the reason the Malachi tithing-blessing formula does not work is because the passage in Malachi is misinterpreted.

The reason the clock doesnt work on my DVD player is because I am apparently not interpreting the instructions correctly. I cant always blame the DVD player.

~Jim

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

A cop out? Because I refuse to compromise the Word of God based on what Joe Schmo's experience has been?

I believe tithing is an absolute truth, so let's try a different analogy:

When we go to school, they teach us how to do long division. Long division is a mathematical truth. If we divide 4 by 2, we end up with 2. There's no room for interpretation there. Just because someone doesn't understand long division and constantly arrives at the wrong answer does not change the fact that long division still works.

Just because someone doesn't see the blessings of tithing does not change the fact that it does indeeed "work".

JimB · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
A cop out? Because I refuse to compromise the Word of God based on what Joe Schmo's experience has been?

I believe tithing is an absolute truth, so let's try a different analogy:

When we go to school, they teach us how to do long division. Long division is a mathematical truth. If we divide 4 by 2, we end up with 2. There's no room for interpretation there. Just because someone doesn't understand long division and constantly arrives at the wrong answer does not change the fact that long division still works.

Just because someone doesn't see the blessings of tithing does not change the fact that it does indeeed "work".

Didn't you (or someone) earlier use your "experience" as evidence of how God blesses tithers? I used experience to show that apparently this is not always true.

Anyhow, it is your interpretation of what the Word says that we are discussing, Pete not what the Word actually says. That is sort of the point. It has nothing to do with Joe Schmo.

~Jim

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

Jim, I don't base my beliefs on my experience, your experience or Joe Schmo's experience. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says.

I have tithed many times where I felt like it didn't "work". But you have to remember, I'm in this for the long haul. I know there are times when we must go through things, and though I may not understand at the time why it isn't "working", God has always shown me later the error of my ways.

Interestingly enough, we can turn around your last statement and say this instead.

Anyhow, it is your interpretation of what the Word says that we are discussing, Jim not what the Word actually says. That is sort of the point. It has nothing to do with Joe Schmo.

SNPete · Aug 17, 2005

Andyman_1970 said:
First, Im not being legalistic (which I find totally ironic coming from someone advocating the requirement of the tithe today), Im being Biblically accurate a concept that seems to be lost on some.

That currency was taken to Jerusalem to buy grain/produce/animals for the tithe, the currency was not the tithe itself, please read the whole chapter that should help

I would thank you not to make assumptions about my giving. But since you asked I would be more than happy to share how my family gives.

First, according to the Scriptures all time is Gods time and time with God, so for my family we recognize that we are doing the work of the ministry wherever we go, not just at church. With that said I am the leader of the college ministry at our church and teach several times during the week (Im a lay person my real job is an engineer), and my wife is very active in the choir/praise team and mentors the female college students, and my 1 year old son is even part of the greeter ministry.

Second, we use the understanding set fourth by John the Baptist about what the community of the Messiah will look like. He said, those that have two tunics should give to those who have none. So for us, even last night, we had two lawn mowers (both less than two years old) I gave one away, same thing a year ago when we had two computers I made sure it went to a student in our community that didnt have much.

The 10% of my income that we give goes to benevolence type ministries or directly to help people that have nothing to eat or a place to stay remember in Matthew 25:44-45 Jesus says when you dont help those in need you arent helping Him. We also give in addition to that as we see people in need, so like Andry said, if I only gave 10% Id have a lot more money to spend.

One other thing, you seem to assert that giving or doing things for God happens in the context of a church, Ill need chapter and verse on that for my family giving and serving God is a 24/7 activity whether we are at church, home, work, the grocery store, Im on a 50 mile bike ride, or Im mowing my lawn its all for God.

Thank you for clarifying what you were saying. I apologize if my posts were harsh.

I had trouble understanding what your point was and my last posts were pointed and designed to give me clarification. Frankly, I could not tell if you were discussing theology or using theology to justify not giving. Forgive me for being blunt, but my reaction was based on dealing with some people who USED scripture to justify things like not seeing the need to give. And yes, we should be in ministry 24/7. I was confused, because it seemed you were not mentioning that you used part of your time and money for ministry outside of your day to day life, like going to the pool and grocery store.

I agree with you that the OT tithe is not for the NT believer. My giving is based my gratitude towards God, 1Cor 9:1-18 and Matt 25:34-40. Whats the point of having an abundance if you cant share and help people?

A little about me. Yes we give 10% of our gross income as a starting point. We give our time in different ways. My wife and I are musicians and are part of the worship ministry at church, which is a five hour commitment each Sunday that we play. I am involved in teaching ministry and my wife heads a prayer chain through our church. Day job is Social Worker and I seem to led to pass out $20 bills to certain people that I come in contact with. Wife is an attorney. (Please, no oxymoron jokes )

We have two grown children. I also am a cyclist-mountain biking is a passion of mine. I also spend a number hours a week posting on two mountain bike forums as ministry, not for fun. When the Chistian bashing starts, I give a response. Someone's got to be a witness in that community. Might as well be me.

http://www.dirtragmag.com/forums/f22

http://forums.mtbr.com/

JimB · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
Jim, I don't base my beliefs on my experience, your experience or Joe Schmo's experience. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says.

I have tithed many times where I felt like it didn't "work". But you have to remember, I'm in this for the long haul. I know there are times when we must go through things, and though I may not understand at the time why it isn't "working", God has always shown me later the error of my ways.

Interestingly enough, we can turn around your last statement and say this instead.

Anyhow, it is your interpretation of what the Word says that we are discussing, Jim not what the Word actually says. That is sort of the point. It has nothing to do with Joe Schmo.

Apparently, I am not making myself clear.

I do not wish to strain at a gnat here but offer the following by way of explanation.

Very often, when we say the Word says all we really mean is according to my interpretation of scripture, the Word says. I agree, my interpretation can be as subjective as yours but I am trying to follow the accepted tried-and-tested rules (principles) of hermeneutics when I approach scripture.

Here are the rules from my files:

Hermeneutics--Principles of Interpretation

The science of interpretation is called Hermeneutics. The aim of hermeneutics is to enable an interpreter to understand Scripture.

If one follows faulty rules of interpretation, he may not understand God's message and will likely interpret Scripture to fit his own views. Such interpretation is to be avoided. To prevent this from occurring, it is necessary to use sound and well-defined principles of interpretation.

The most important principle to follow to understand biblical passages is to interpret them by the same rules used to interpret other writings. Scripture is not written in some heavenly language, but in ordinary human language as other books. Thus it should be understood by the same common-sense process as other writings.

The interpreter should realize that principles, not fixed rules or formulas, should be followed. These principles should not be thought of as rigid rules that when mechanically applied give correct interpretations. They are principles that are to be used thoughtfully. Several of the principles are listed below:

1. THE GRAMMATICAL--HISTORICAL PRINCIPLE of interpretation requires the interpreter to use the laws of grammar and the facts of history to understand Scripture. The laws of grammar require the literal sense, which means words are to understood in their most direct, simple, and ordinary meaning, unless the context indicates they are used in a figurative sense. To use the facts of history means that the writing be understood in light of the time and circumstances connected with the writing. This grammatical-historical method of interpretation is in simple words the common-sense method readers use to interpret everyday writings.

2. A WRITING HAS BUT ONE MEANING. Writing is used to communicate thoughts, and the writer's goal is to communicate his thoughts in the clearest possible way. This means his writing should never be given several meanings. New Testament writers wrote in this normal manner. They never attempted to hide their meaning; therefore, the meaning which is clearest and most evident is to be understood, and it alone. There is no conceivable reason a writer would try to obscure the ideas he wished to present by giving the words hidden meaning. Sometimes writers use words in other than their literal sense in their communications; they occasionally used figurative language. Interpretation of figurative language will be discussed later.

Scriptures do not contain contradictions. Paul emphasized this truth when he cautioned Timothy to "avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge" (I Tim. 6:20 RSV). Paul knew that only false knowledge contained contradictions.

3. THE PLAN, PURPOSE, AND CONTEXT should be taken into account when interpreting a writing. These are considered in the grammatical-historical principle. A writing should be viewed as a unit to discover its plan or overall structure. This enables one to better understand smaller sections of it. The same can be said about the author's purpose in writing. Often to understand a word or passage one needs to look at the context in which it appears. Normally, authors write in some logical order. They use a continuous, logical flow of thoughts that may carry through an entire book. To disregard this order of context and to interpret a statement by itself may lead to a distorted interpretation or complete misinterpretation of a passage. Therefore, a word or passage must be understood in its context.

4. THE MEANINGS OF WORDS change from time to time, making it necessary to search for the meaning the author intended. Generally, an author uses a word's common meaning, although sometimes a special or peculiar meaning may be given. In such cases the word's meaning may be found in the immediate context or in his other writings, where he might have defined the word. A word may also be understood by studying parallel passages to see how the author used it there. When seeking the meaning, care must be taken that the author's meaning is found and not some later developed meaning.

5. FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE is sometimes used and is not meant to be understood literally. It is not necessary to set up a hard and complex rule to determine when language is figurative. In most cases the literal sense is to be understood unless such an interpretation involves obvious contradictions or absurdities. Generally, interpretation of figurative language is not difficult, and a figurative term or passage can be readily understood when considered in the author's context. But some figurative language associated with prophecies, such as appear in the Book of Revelation, can require great effort and Holy Spirit guidance before being understood. In interpreting such symbolism, the reader should look for a divine interpretation. It may possibly be found in other books. If a divine interpretation is not given, the symbolism may remain an unsolved mystery. In such cases we should simply acknowledge we do not know what it means and avoid guessing at meanings.

The parable was one of Christ's favorite methods of teaching. The parable is a special type of comparison; it places the idea to be communicated alongside another idea that is understood. To understand a parable one must first understand the common idea and then seek the main point or emphasis of comparison. A parable usually contains one main point of comparison and its details generally should not be compared or given special emphasis. Many parable parts are only incidental, and if they are given special meaning, the parable's meaning might be obscured.

An example of a parable and how it is to be interpreted is the "weeds in the fields" found in Matthew 13. Jesus spoke to His disciples and a crowd about how "the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat" (Matthew 13:24-29 RSV). Jesus' disciples did not understand this parable, and after the crowds left they asked Jesus to explain it. He then placed the meaning alongside the familiar term used. "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels." What is the main point of this parable? Jesus explained, "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of the Father. He who has ears, let him hear" (Matt. 13:36-42). This parable's familiar picture of sowing and the harvest makes the judgment clearer.

An example of how figurative prophetic terms are defined is found in Revelation 1. John writes about lampstands, a son of man, seven stars, etc., in Revelation 1:12-16. In the next paragraph he defines these figurative terms. The one he saw in the preceding paragraph, "a son of man" (v. 15), spoke to John and said, "I am the first and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades." This clearly is Jesus Christ. He explained to John that the "seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the lampstands are the seven churches." So all the figurative terms of the preceding paragraph are defined, and when the reader finds these terms later in the book, he will know their meaning.

6. SCRIPTURE MAY HELP TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE. Since God has given us His word in Scripture, each part must be understood in the light of the whole. Thus, if a passage is hard to understand, it should be compared with other passages on the subject and to the message of the Scripture as a whole. When this is done, the plain passages will help to interpret the difficult ones. The passages should harmonize¾and will¾unless passages are compared that do not address the same subject or unless the Scripture leaves a mystery that will only become clear at a later date.

7. THE TWO MAJOR DIVISIONS of Scripture, the Old and New Covenants, should be observed.

The reader should not control interpretation by accepting what he wants to hear and rejecting what he doesn't. If this is done, the reader will not understand the Word, and the Bible will say different things to different people. This interpolation can become even more difficult if the Scriptures are all negative; there is a general reluctance in man to listen to negative expressions. The reader must be careful not to screen these out.

JimB · Aug 17, 2005

My approach to giving, as a pastor, is not to teach the practice of tithing since that was an ordinance of the Old Covenant, the Law, from which we have been freed. Rather, I teach generosity as a virtue every Christian should aim toward.

If I teach tithing our offerings may improve and our members feel justified in fulfilling the demands of the Law but it will not necessarily be translated into other areas of their lives. The Apostle wrote, Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation (1 Cor 9.5). In fact, there is no mention at all of the tithe in all of Pauls writings. His aim was to teach generosity, not tithing.

IOW, Fulfilling the Law of the Tithe does not necessarily fulfill the "Royal Law".

If, however, I teach that Christians should aim at being generous by nature, not merely doing generous acts (tithing), then they are not only generous with their church but with others as well.

The New Covenant aims at changing human nature, not just improving human performance.

IMO.

~Jim

9-iron · Aug 17, 2005

Yo Skin, page 4 and still plenty of momentum. I should have called your 10 pager.

For those that adhere to the Malachi principles, I want to see a copy of your bank account. Your accounts or barns should be overflowing right?

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

9-Iron said:
For those that adhere to the Malachi principles, I want to see a copy of your bank account. Your accounts or barns should be overflowing right?

I'll be the first to admit that my bank account is not overflowing. But it's not because the tithing principle doesn't work. It's because I have made some hair-brained decisions regarding my finances. That's the price we pay for having our own free will. God will allow us to make stupid choices. But that in no way negates that tithing "works". It simply means that I have not come to the full understanding of it.

The problem is motive. When you start demanding to see a copy of my bank account, you've missed the point. I have no desire to participate in a get rich scheme. My motive in tithing AND offerings is to be a blessing to others. The fact that God blesses me and rebukes the devourer for my sake is just the icing on the cake. God said he would do this. I've seen Him do this.

In Ephesians, children are taught to obey their parents. This means you HAVE to obey your parents. But I never looked at that way when I was growing up. I obeyed my parents for basically 2 reasons:

I loved them and wanted to please them.
It was the right thing to do.

This is why I believe in tithing. I agree with all that has been said about giving more than 10%, but those figures are between you and God. I simply believe that the 10% of your first fruits in non-negotiable.

As for Hermenuetics, this is the first time I've even heard this word. While those are some good priniciples for interpreting scripture, the number one thing missing is this: Spend time with God. In prayer, worship, fellowship, etc. so that you can begin to know the heart of the Father. When you do this, God will begin to show you more clearly His will. God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek after Him.

JimB · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
*****
As for Hermenuetics, this is the first time I've even heard this word. While those are some good priniciples for interpreting scripture, the number one thing missing is this: Spend time with God. In prayer, worship, fellowship, etc. so that you can begin to know the heart of the Father. When you do this, God will begin to show you more clearly His will. God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek after Him.

I am not discrediting spending time with God. The only problem with what you have said is that people who do spend time with God but who do not follow good hermeneutics wind up with their own peculiar, subjective, differing and often opposing and erroneous interpretations of scripture.

IMO

~Jim

Pete, I do appreciate the gentle way in which you debate issues. It is refreshing. Welcome aboard.

Andry · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
I simply believe that the 10% of your first fruits in non-negotiable.

Do you know there's a difference between the tithe and first fruits? You cannot interchange them casually. Study the word - in this case, particularly the OT - in the context it was written, and not on what some pastor preached in an hour long sermon.

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

Thanks for the kudos Jim. It's nice to be here. The reason I joined this forum was to be challenged. I know what I believe and I have seen the fruit of it in my own life, but it helps me grow in my faith when I must "defend" (for lack of a better word) my beliefs. However, I am what most would call "stubborn" when it comes to what I believe. I prefer "firmly rooted".

Jim M said:
I am not discrediting spending time with God. The only problem with what you have said is that people who do spend time with God but who do not follow good hermeneutics wind up with their own peculiar, subjective, differing and often opposing and erroneous interpretations of scripture.

I would suggest that the reason we wind up with peculiar, subjective, differing and opposing intrepretations is because most people don't spend time with God. They either twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean, or they spend 5 minutes a day in fellowship with God, or they just listen to what someone else has told them. I truly believe that if we all spent the time fellowshiping with our creator and truly learning his heart towards us, then all of this subjectiveness would disappear.

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

andry said:
Study the word - in this case, particularly the OT - in the context it was written, and not on what some pastor preached in an hour long sermon.

OK, I can do that too: Spend time with God, and more than just 5 minutes a day, and not on what some random, misinformed person in a forum posts.

Andry, The implication that you have made is that I established my beliefs from what some pastor has preached to me. That is a false statement and is a blatant attempt to portray me negatively. I don't appreciate that.

I go to church every Sunday morning and Wednesday night. I have attended the same church for over 25 years and have probably only missed a handful of services over the years. But that doesn't mean that I don't read the word for myself. Just because I'm faithful to a local church and submit myself to my pastor does not mean that everything I say is simply a regurjitation of what I've heard.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
As for Hermenuetics, this is the first time I've even heard this word.

With all due respect that does not surprise me.

probinson said:
While those are some good priniciples for interpreting scripture, the number one thing missing is this: Spend time with God. In prayer, worship, fellowship, etc. so that you can begin to know the heart of the Father. When you do this, God will begin to show you more clearly His will. God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek after Him.

God won't show you a different meaning than the orginal context in which it was written - again interpretation without context essentially puts the meaning of the Text up for grabs.

Andry · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
Hmmm. Since you decided to stop reading my post halfway through, let me repost it for you:

I never said that I stop at 10%. I give obediently, according to God's direction and leading. I simply said that I believe that the 10% is a requirement, but giving it should not be viewed as a burden or an obligation. It should be viewed as an act of obedience as children to our Father whom we love. With obedience comes blessing.

I never got the chance to respond to you....as pages on a tithe thread tend to add quickly. And I haven't welcomed you to the forum. So, welcome! (But you sure picked a doozy of a thread to start!).

I've read all your subsequent threads btw, and I don't doubt your dedication to God at all. Yes, giving should never be a burden. But I do want to clarify that those here who may not agree with the tithe as practiced in the church today, such as Jim M, Andyman, and myself are not saying "don't give". On the contrary, we teach to give, and give as generously as you are able and happy about it.

As Jim stated earlier about the importance of hermeneutics....(and another big word, "exegesis" should also be understood), we need to be consistent with our interpretation and application. For an analogy, if we are going to be insistent on the literal interpretation of baptism as being fully immersed, then we need to apply the laws of the tithe with the same consistency - that it was never currency even when currency was available, that it was feasted upon once a year in a place where God chose, and that once every three years it was feasted in our hometown with the poor, homeless, and other marginalized people. How grain and livestock is "converted" into money today is poor hermeneutics and exegesis.

probinson · Aug 17, 2005

Hi Andyman_1970,

With all due respect, could you show me the word Hermenuetics anywhere in the Bible? I'll wait...

Hmm. It's not there?

Hermenuetics, while having good principles for interpreting scripture, is a MAN-MADE FORMULA for interpreting the Word of God. I'd much rather ask the author what He meant, than try to figure it out for myself.

Andry · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
OK, I can do that too: Spend time with God, and more than just 5 minutes a day, and not on what some random, misinformed person in a forum posts.

Andry, The implication that you have made is that I established my beliefs from what some pastor has preached to me. That is a false statement and is a blatant attempt to portray me negatively. I don't appreciate that.

I apologize for that. I was not attempting to portray you negatively.

At the same time, you implied the same, but so be it. But so it's clear, I sincerely apologize.

I'll have to echo both Jim M and Andyman's sentiments - spending time with God is important, of course. But understanding the principles of interpretation and the applications of the interpretation are vital to understanding Scripture. At the same time, I'm not suggesting we read Scripture as simple text - logos in Chritianese - but when we aren't aware of hermeneutics.....context goes out the window.

Andry · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
Hi Andyman_1970,

With all due respect, could you show me the word Hermenuetics anywhere in the Bible? I'll wait...

Hmm. It's not there?

Hermenuetics, while having good principles for interpreting scripture, is a MAN-MADE FORMULA for interpreting the Word of God. I'd much rather ask the author what He meant, than try to figure it out for myself.

Neither is "trinity". Or find "rapture". Or how about "THE Anti-Christ". Let's not chase that rabbit trail.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 17, 2005

probinson said:
Hi Andyman_1970,

With all due respect, could you show me the word Hermenuetics anywhere in the Bible? I'll wait...

Hmm. It's not there?

Hermenuetics, while having good principles for interpreting scripture, is a MAN-MADE FORMULA for interpreting the Word of God. I'd much rather ask the author what He meant, than try to figure it out for myself.

If the Apostle Paul only quoted "Christian" people or sources or only used the Scriptures we would be missing two passages from our New Testament (Acts 17 and Titus 1).

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