Tithing:

[PentecostalEvangelist]

There is a teaching going around which states that if a person fails to pay their tithes, that person is required BY God to repay the unpaid tithe PLUS a 20% penalty.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support this claim, AND IF this is a Biblically correct teaching, where is the Biblical evidence which absolutely does away with 1st John 1 vesre 9.

 

[brotherjim]

There is of course much bad teaching in the church regarding tithes and such, much of it because of hoe modern-day ministries get themselves in a position where they have huge and overwhelming overhead expenses, and the pressure of it all causes them to err in doctrine concerning financial matters.

The NT Christian is of course not under any such dead letter of the OT Law, such as the ORDINANCE (such as were nailed to the Cross) to tithe.

On the other hand, we who are in Christ were purchased with such a priceless cost, God's Own Son--not to mention the fact the God is the ultimate source of everything--that the Heavenly Father thereby believes He has the right to consider all that we own as being His. The first century, apostolic church knew this, and they liquidated their major assets and gave all the proceeds to God (gee, I wonder why they had such power to change their world).

We under the New Cov. are to be rather led by the (S)spirit, to learn and obey His moment-by-moment (V)voice, and obey. This takes experience and many failures ("who through reason of use have their senses trained to discern good and evil" [KJV]; etc.). Therefore, in regards to what monies we are to give, it is the amount that God's Spirit tells us at whatever time and in whatever circumstance He speaks.

"Today, if you [will??] hear His Voice, harden not your heart."

The above notwithstanding, since the new--and many a veteran--Christian cannot correctly discern God's Voice, then another Kingdom principle comes into play, that of using the things of the Old Cov. "as examples. . . ." (KJV), and it is generally wise to use 10% as a starting point, asking God by Faith to eventually show you a better way, and to correct you if and when you are wrong to give the 10%, or even anything at all at times. All things by the Spirit, but 2 or 3 "witnesses" are even better.

"It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us, that you should. . . ."

Finally, all Christians, virtually/practically without exception, have still hiding within their heart the Love of money, the Love of this world, from which they need to be specifically and miraculously delivered--and which prevents them from walking in Love (1 Jn. 2:15b), which is required if we are to one day inherit eternal Life (1 Jn. 2:3-5; Lk. 10:25-28; 1 Jn. 4:16-18. Rev. 22:14; etc.). This remaining idol of agapao for the world will most always cause the Christian to make incorrect decisions regarding tithes and offerings and personal possessions.

The Good News: He offers more Grace, including the Grace of repentance for when we don't feel like repenting. Ask Him, in Jesus name, and believe, nothing wavering.

jim

 

[swifteagle]

There is of course much bad teaching in the church regarding tithes and such, much of it because of hoe modern-day ministries get themselves in a position where they have huge and overwhelming overhead expenses, and the pressure of it all causes them to err in doctrine concerning financial matters.

I agree with you in this, however...

The NT Christian is of course not under any such dead letter of the OT Law, such as the ORDINANCE (such as were nailed to the Cross) to tithe.

Since Jesus said this...“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." Luke 11:42

How do you come to the conclusion that the Tithe is not a part of the NT covenant?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Wow !! It has been a while since the last thread on this topic . Was it a record ?

There is a teaching going around which states that if a person fails to pay their tithes, that person is required BY God to repay the unpaid tithe PLUS a 20% penalty.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support this claim, AND IF this is a Biblically correct teaching, where is the Biblical evidence which absolutely does away with 1st John 1 vesre 9.

I don't know of any writings backing this claim . In fact , I have not heard of this particular teaching , before . However , the only time that I have heard of of a 20% penalty was if a a person was paying in money instead of food .

My question would be , if a person decided to ignore a "requirement by God" to perform a tithe ( if there *was* one ) , why would they care about another requirement dealing with the refusal to fulfill the first one ? I do get your point of forgiveness . I would suppose that someone would claim that , if you were sincere , you would still do what you were supposed to do even though you were forgiven for not originally doing it . There are several ways that people could go from there .

 

[New_Wineskin]

There is of course much bad teaching in the church regarding tithes and such, much of it because of hoe modern-day ministries get themselves in a position where they have huge and overwhelming overhead expenses, and the pressure of it all causes them to err in doctrine concerning financial matters.

The NT Christian is of course not under any such dead letter of the OT Law, such as the ORDINANCE (such as were nailed to the Cross) to tithe.

On the other hand, we who are in Christ were purchased with such a priceless cost, God's Own Son--not to mention the fact the God is the ultimate source of everything--that the Heavenly Father thereby believes He has the right to consider all that we own as being His. The first century, apostolic church knew this, and they liquidated their major assets and gave all the proceeds to God (gee, I wonder why they had such power to change their world).

We under the New Cov. are to be rather led by the (S)spirit, to learn and obey His moment-by-moment (V)voice, and obey. This takes experience and many failures ("who through reason of use have their senses trained to discern good and evil" [KJV]; etc.). Therefore, in regards to what monies we are to give, it is the amount that God's Spirit tells us at whatever time and in whatever circumstance He speaks.

"Today, if you [will??] hear His Voice, harden not your heart."

The above notwithstanding, since the new--and many a veteran--Christian cannot correctly discern God's Voice, then another Kingdom principle comes into play, that of using the things of the Old Cov. "as examples. . . ." (KJV), and it is generally wise to use 10% as a starting point, asking God by Faith to eventually show you a better way, and to correct you if and when you are wrong to give the 10%, or even anything at all at times. All things by the Spirit, but 2 or 3 "witnesses" are even better.

"It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us, that you should. . . ."

Finally, all Christians, virtually/practically without exception, have still hiding within their heart the Love of money, the Love of this world, from which they need to be specifically and miraculously delivered--and which prevents them from walking in Love (1 Jn. 2:15b), which is required if we are to one day inherit eternal Life (1 Jn. 2:3-5; Lk. 10:25-28; 1 Jn. 4:16-18. Rev. 22:14; etc.). This remaining idol of agapao for the world will most always cause the Christian to make incorrect decisions regarding tithes and offerings and personal possessions.

The Good News: He offers more Grace, including the Grace of repentance for when we don't feel like repenting. Ask Him, in Jesus name, and believe, nothing wavering.

jim

Jim , I enjoyed your post .

 

[brotherjim]

. . . Since Jesus said this...“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." Luke 11:42

How do you come to the conclusion that the Tithe is not a part of the NT covenant?

Greetings, swifteagle.

Are you asking me? I'll have to assume so, I guess. Regardless:

I LOVE it when someone knows their Word. Good point.

Whenever forming a doctrine, many, many factors must be brought into play. Just one of these elements is asking ourselves about any particular passage, who is speaking, and TO WHOM are they speaking--and, in this case, what is the main thesis.

Jesus was speaking to those living under the Old Covenant, in the example you quote. And He was not teaching about tithing, He was teaching about Loving and about ministering Justice, and was using their tithing as a comparative. So in order that these Pharisees, for example, not later have chance to try and hang Jesus with His Words, so to speak (as they often attempted, accusing Him of being dichotomous to OT Law), He was including the fact that even though Love and Justice were more important than tithing (or so it can be construed to be implying), they had nonetheless been living under the Old Covenant, which Law required tithing also, and so neither were they excused from that.

But so, too, is the New Cov. Christian, in addition to walking in Love and Justice, give of their possession when God's Spirit requests it of them.

(There is also another rabbit one can chase into its hole, that of the widow's mite. For someone living on $600. or $800./ mth. SSI, for example, it would mean far more to God if they gave $5. a week to Him when by so doing it meant they had to forgo steak in favor of a can of beans, then it would if they were earning $2K/mth. and giving 10% to the church/poor--especially if that is what God told them to do, but not only so. "I desire obedience, not sacrifice," or something like that. The problem with this example, however, is that many use this widow's mite m.o. as a way of trying to extort a return from God. It's all about motive; it's about following the Spirit of NT Law, not some dead letter of it [yes, there is a dead letter NT Law as well as an OT].)

bj

 

[Questioning Christian]

Leviticus 27:30-32

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Okay ...

Let us focus on this word "fifth".

In my estimation, to give the Lord the FIFTH part, to redeem your tithes, could mean EITHER 5% or 20%, depending on which point of view you take. The phrase "the tenth" or "the tenth part" meant BOTH one-tenth, and also ten percent, because mathematically, one-tenth and ten percent are the same.

However, if you determine the word "part" to mean "percent", then the Lord only would require you to give five PERCENT. If, to you, "part" means "portion", then you would add one-fifth, or 20 percent.

I think it could be interpreted both ways.

I may be wrong, but I am guessing that those who would enforce the 20% tax on tithes are trying to line their pockets, more than they are interested in the restoration of the believer.

The Bible also says we have to sacrifice goats, etc, so are we going back to animal slayings in the sanctuary?

How come preachers tell us we are not under the Law, but then they want to enforce Old Testament policy when it comes to MONEY????

Somebody answer me that one!!!

 

[brotherjim]

Another rabbit:

Let us also not forget, in lieu of the Old. Cov. Law of the Tithe, Christ has placed the church under the New Cov. Law of Sowing and Reaping, and therefore has left it somewhat up to each of us as to how involved we will be (not negating what was previously posted in regards to obeying His Voice, of course), and how blessed as a result.

bj

 

[Peaceful Dove]

This bumper sticker was in our Church Bulletin:

Tithe if you love Jesus, anyone can honk!

We all got a great kick out of our new Pastors sense of humor.

 

[9-iron]

Wow !! It has been a while since the last thread on this topic . Was it a record ?

I'll bet a tenth of your paycheck this thread hits 5+ pages....

 

[StevenL]

The church "tithe" doctrine is as false as a three dollar bill.

 

[Jimmy West]

There is a teaching going around which states that if a person fails to pay their tithes, that person is required BY God to repay the unpaid tithe PLUS a 20% penalty.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support this claim, AND IF this is a Biblically correct teaching, where is the Biblical evidence which absolutely does away with 1st John 1 vesre 9.

I was lead to believe that tithing applied only to that income that was a result of your labor, or work. That would exclude things like income tax refunds, bonuses, gifts, social security, lottary winnings, and retirement plan income. Is that correct?

 

[swifteagle]

I was lead to believe that tithing applied only to that income that was a result of your labor, or work. That would exclude things like income tax refunds, bonuses, gifts, social security, lottary winnings, and retirement plan income. Is that correct?

It's 10% of your increase but many people give more than that. So, your income tax return might be exempt if you tithe on your gross. If it brings you increase it is because of His favor you should tithe on it.

When I sold a home I tithed on the amount that came in over what I had originally paid for it. I had only owned the home for 2 years and the Lord gave me a profit of over $100k so I tithed over $10k. God supplies abundantly to His people!! You should also tithe on inheritances!

BTW~ It ALL belongs to Him and He lets us keep the majority of it, which is 90% of which we should also give offerings and alms!

swifteagle ><>

 

[Andrew]

There is a teaching going around which states that if a person fails to pay their tithes, that person is required BY God to repay the unpaid tithe PLUS a 20% penalty.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support this claim, AND IF this is a Biblically correct teaching, where is the Biblical evidence which absolutely does away with 1st John 1 vesre 9.

There is no such requirement by God. If a person does not want to pay his tithes, he's just losing out by not allowing God to do more in his life, by not allowing God to position him for more blessings.

God doesnt' demand and then punish if you dont do it. That's law. Tithing under grace is this: You tithe becos you feel so blessed by God and you just want to express your gratitude and your acknowledgement that he is the source of all your blessings. And you put your money where your mouth is. Your tithe then becoms a form of worship.

 

[SNPete]

I agree that it all belongs to God. I agree that God supplies all that we need. I agree that our life is a life of faith. I agree that we should trust that God will supply for our life and need.

My question is: are we under the OT law or under grace? My answer is that we are under grace. Grace says-to quote 2Cor9:6-10 paraphrase: each of us should ask God what should to give and do it. The 10% is an OT rule. This 10% penalty in the OP is of the law. If one wants to live under the law fine. It's a free country, so to speak. Truth be told:as Christians we are under grace, not law. With that said, I say he/she who gives to God generously will be blessed. He/she who gives sparingly with a heart that says "this is the best I can do" will be honored by God through grace.

Each of us is in a different place, spiritually. God honors us according to where we are at in our walk.

FYI: We give 10% plus of our gross. God is good!

 

[Andrew]

I was lead to believe that tithing applied only to that income that was a result of your labor, or work. That would exclude things like income tax refunds, bonuses, gifts, social security, lottary winnings, and retirement plan income. Is that correct?

If one had to ask such questions, then pls dont tithe. If one has to "calculate" it -- "Hmmm... should I tithe on this, technically... " then don't. Tithing should be spontaneous. If you won the lottery, are you so happy and cheerful about it that you want to give something back to God becos you acknowledge that it was from him? If you do, then tithe on it. If you have to calculate and rationalise it, and give grudgingly out of a sense of 'duty', forget it.

 

[Andrew]

I agree that it all belongs to God. I agree that God supplies all that we need. I agree that our life is a life of faith. I agree that we should trust that God will supply for our life and need.

My question is: are we under the OT law or under grace? My answer is that we are under grace. Grace says-to quote 2Cor9:6-10 paraphrase: each of us should ask God what should to give and do it. The 10% is an OT rule. This 10% penalty in the OP is of the law. If one wants to live under the law fine. It's a free country, so to speak. Truth be told:as Christians we are under grace, not law. With that said, I say he/she who gives to God generously will be blessed. He/she who gives sparingly with a heart that says "this is the best I can do" will be honored by God through grace.

Each of us is in a different place, spiritually. God honors us according to where we are at in our walk.

FYI: We give 10% plus of our gross. God is good!

Please understnd that no one is talking about tithing under law here. Of course we are no longer under the law, and we don't tithe becos of some law or rule. We tithe out of grace, as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did. We are under grace, under the Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus, who received tithes from Abraham, not becos of some law, but becos Abraham wanted too.

So it's tithing under grace that tithers here are refering to.

 

[SNPete]

Please understnd that no one is talking about tithing under law here.

Are you sure? The first couple of posts are definitly based on OT, 10% with a penalty tithing. AKA a God tax.

 

[Godzchild]

I post this from a website called "The Wilderness Voice" this exerpt was written by Michael Clark.

http://www.awildernessvoice.com/law_church.html

The law and tithe.

 

[Christina M]

Here we go again........

Too bad more energy isn't spent praying in faith.... or doing things that are productive for God.....instead of beating this dead horse. (and all the people who don't agree with the other's "opinion".)