Tithing when in debt?

Well the statement by Jesus you are referring to said nothing would pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away... not until anything is fulfilled.
Matt 5.18

Not that I think that means we are still under the law, just wanted to throw that out there.

There are other reasons than the law that we must still give of our own to the church today.

briareos said:

Well the statement by Jesus you are referring to said nothing would pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away... not until anything is fulfilled.
Matt 5.18

Not that I think that means we are still under the law, just wanted to throw that out there.

There are other reasons than the law that we must still give of our own to the church today.

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You nailed it on the head! Jesus addressed this when addressing the pharisees. He said to turn our cheek, go an extra mile, etc. This is the definition of grace. It means to go above and beyond the call. The call is to tithe which in Old Testament always signified a tenth, ten and a test. Our tithe is the FIRST 10% of our gross income(before Uncle Sam's take) and anything above that is our offering. Thus our offering or anything greater than the 10% qualifies as the going the extra mile or turning the other cheek Jesus spoke of. We must NEVER say "well that was Old Testament we aren't under the law anymore" as an excuse to get away with not tithing! That is taking away from God's perfect Word and is an abomination. You are creating your own image of God at that point, one that is different from the TRUE Father. We must hold fast to the standards God has set before us in both the Old Testament and New Testament. To say well tithe was the law we dont have to do it is ridiculous because that's like saying lieing was under the law, surely its ok to lie, or murder, or even commit adultery. Right? We mustn't settle that view in our hearts as ok.

I will stay out of the tithing debate and simply say this:

I chose to tithe while in debt. Since doing that, I have, for the first time, mad great progress in addressing my debt since becoming tither. I believe that tithing has been one of many principles that has helped me to gain control over my financial situation.

I would simply say that whatever amount you are called to give, you are called to give no matter what your financial situation looks like. Regular, disciplined, and budgeted giving is one discipline that many people finds actually helps bring finances under control. On paper, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, in God's economy, it works.

dies-l said:

I will stay out of the tithing debate and simply say this:

I chose to tithe while in debt. Since doing that, I have, for the first time, mad great progress in addressing my debt since becoming tither. I believe that tithing has been one of many principles that has helped me to gain control over my financial situation.

I would simply say that whatever amount you are called to give, you are called to give no matter what your financial situation looks like. Regular, disciplined, and budgeted giving is one discipline that many people finds actually helps bring finances under control. On paper, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, in God's economy, it works.

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Very well said. I couldnt of said it better myself.

briareos said:

Well the statement by Jesus you are referring to said nothing would pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away... not until anything is fulfilled.
Matt 5.18

Not that I think that means we are still under the law, just wanted to throw that out there.

There are other reasons than the law that we must still give of our own to the church today.

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Matthew 5:18;"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

The Truth speaks for itself. The fulfilling of the law is prophecy.

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Luke 11:42
“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

If Jesus says you should tithe, not tithing is robbing God right?

blankCrossfire said:

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Luke 11:42
“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

If Jesus says you should tithe, not tithing is robbing God right?

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Yes, I agree, but what about the way the tithe actually was-in Nehemiah 10:35-39 tells us exactly HOW they tithed. So unless we are giving our firstborn child, cattle, etc. then we are STILL robbing God. They weren't doing that back then, that's why God said that in Malachia 3:10 about robbing God. We are no better, because I sure don't know anyone that gives their firstborn kid to God, or any livestock, etc.

InSpiritinTruth

I myself prefer the ESV but it does not seem to be saying that a fulfilling of the law alone is all that is referring too, rather it seems to be saying a fulfilling of all things and prophecy concerns much more than the law or the death of Christ.

I am not arguing with you, but that is my take on that.

Migdala said:

Yes, I agree, but what about the way the tithe actually was-in Nehemiah 10:35-39 tells us exactly HOW they tithed. So unless we are giving our firstborn child, cattle, etc. then we are STILL robbing God. They weren't doing that back then, that's why God said that in Malachia 3:10 about robbing God. We are no better, because I sure don't know anyone that gives their firstborn kid to God, or any livestock, etc.

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I see your point now. Had to go to a few other sources but your stance makes a bit more sense. Although I have to ask, do you still give as if your entitled to tithe? Like for example, every paycheck you receive, etc? Something I've questioned for quite some time and it's a bit clearer now. Does your offering even need to go to the church? Why can't it go to the plethora of other drives/donations, etc?

God takes care of you in cool ways when you give. He's taken care of surprise expenses for me while I was giving and barely making it through each month.

As far as your finances go, I'm not sure where you're at - but here's some good, Christian advice on getting out of debt. Tools and Resources - daveramsey.com

I will not be joining the debate, but I wanted to say that we only offer 5% of our income because that's what I feel led to give.

New International Version (©1984)
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

King James Bible
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Is my basis for what I give.

Giving for the Lord is great, we are told to help the sick, poor, widowed, those imprisoned, and to those who have dedicated their lives to God, missionaries, pastors etc.

BUT your families well being comes first...the bible said if you are not providing for your family, YOU ARE WORSE THAN AN UNBELIEVER. You are in sin if you are not paying your bills, and providing for your family. God expects you to do this FIRST, then give when you can.

"8But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers" (1 Timothy 5)

woodpecker said:

Giving for the Lord is great, we are told to help the sick, poor, widowed, those imprisoned, and to those who have dedicated their lives to God, missionaries, pastors etc.

BUT your families well being comes first...the bible said if you are not providing for your family, YOU ARE WORSE THAN AN UNBELIEVER. You are in sin if you are not paying your bills, and providing for your family. God expects you to do this FIRST, then give when you can.

"8But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers" (1 Timothy 5)

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I don't know what the OP's situation is. However, for the vast majority of people in the West, the dilemma is not about giving vs. supporting one's family. It is about giving vs. having luxuries and entertainment.

If I look at my budget honestly, less than half of my income is spent on legitimate needs of my family, such as food, housing, clothing, and heat.

The rest is spent on things like internet, Netflix, restaurants, TV, electricity, and more extravagant food, housing, and clothing than I really need.

So, I would agree that if giving required me to forfeit any of the legitimate needs, then perhaps I would be better not to give. But, as long as it is only eating into my luxuries and conveniences, I should give and give generously.

Elliemare said:

Are we supposed to tithe even if we're in debt? What exactly does 10 percent of our profits mean? What if we have no profit left after we meet all of the obligations of the bills we must pay?

I'm confused? I've given more than I had to give in the past, then actually regretted it later, feeling that I should have put it toward my bills instead.

Our pastor just recently spoke about how those who are responsible with their money, are blessed with more. Wouldn't God want me to take care of my financial obligations first and foremost?

I'm currently praying that I can get out of debt so that I will be able to give more in the future, but should I be giving now, or focusing on paying off those bills instead?

Just wondering if anyone had any insight on this matter?

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I felt led to tithe while I was a baby Christian and while I was in debt. I was working full time as a speech/language pathologist for the school system at that time and had picked up some private speech therapy after hours to pay off some tax money I owed.

Because, like you, I was worried about $, I did not tithe 10% but only started giving more. Within a week after that something dramatic occured. Previously I had been traveling back & forth all over town to do my after hours therapy. Suddenly about a mile right down the street I was given therapy in one apartment with 3 people who needed my services! That is not all. It is a long story but at the exact same time a door was opened up to me, through no effort at all on my part, so that I got a contract where I was being paid twice as much per hour as before! Consequently I began to tithe in full after that and have done so for years now.

10% of our increase when we do not live in an aggrarian society to me means just give 10% of our gross salary. (Anyway the way I figured it, since I had not been tithing all my life before that it couldn't be too much for I owed "back tithe.") We almost can't give too much. "Give and it will be given to you..."

The widow who made a cake for Elijah when she and her own son were starving made a wise move, thought it seemed foolish, even cruel to her boy and herself.

We never know what blessings we got and what problems were averted because we tithed, maybe in terms of health, wisdom, better relationships with our loved ones, etc.

YHWH says that if we do not tithe we rob Him. Not a good place to be.

I have never regretted tithing and I personally give that money before anything else is paid for we are told to give the "first fruits."

And btw since I am now what people call "Messianic" (though I prefer simply "Hebraic roots") I don't attend, or give to, a Church per se as in the past but to Compassion International. They are Christian & give Scriptures along with food to needy children all over the world.

Migdala said:

Yes, I agree, but what about the way the tithe actually was-in Nehemiah 10:35-39 tells us exactly HOW they tithed. So unless we are giving our firstborn child, cattle, etc. then we are STILL robbing God. They weren't doing that back then, that's why God said that in Malachia 3:10 about robbing God. We are no better, because I sure don't know anyone that gives their firstborn kid to God, or any livestock, etc.

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When the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood was scattered to the winds then obviously things couldn't be done exactly according that to that System. However, I'm sure that the people in ancient Israel who didn't have farms in those days, but were city folk, still tithed from their income. I think they would have been considered outcasts if they had said, "OOps. Sorry. I don't have a farm, no cows, no corn. Whoopie! I don't have to tithe." The widow's mite was a coin, not a cow for ex.

We are to support YHWH's work with our income. We don't have to give cows & goats to do that. In fact things are far easier for us! We just have to make a withdrawal to the right place from our bank accounts.

Migdala said:

....BUT, when I stopped tithing my full 10% and more, then all kinds of bad things started happening, where I had to spend way more money than I had-things like car problems, things breaking down in my home, etc., etc. Started back tithing and it helped dramatically. I've talked to many others who have had similar things happen like that to them too. I never could understand it, but it's not worth it to me to even risk it.

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I've experienced the same. Good point.

blankCrossfire said:

I see your point now. Had to go to a few other sources but your stance makes a bit more sense. Although I have to ask, do you still give as if your entitled to tithe? Like for example, every paycheck you receive, etc? Something I've questioned for quite some time and it's a bit clearer now. Does your offering even need to go to the church? Why can't it go to the plethora of other drives/donations, etc?

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I give my 10% to the church, and then I give to drives/donations/homeless people, etc. as the Lord puts them in my path. I have been blessed by doing this more times than I can count, although I don't do it to be blessed-I do it because I hate to see people hurting, and I love to help people when I can.

Yes, I give on every bit of money that comes in my home. For instance, my paycheck of course, and anything else. Like, I rent two bedrooms out of my home, and I tithe 10% on the rent my roommates pay me. Today I won a $10 gift card at work, and I'll give a dollar out of that. I had a yard sale a few weeks ago and made about $70, and I tithed out of that. I got an insurance check for some tile damage, and I tithed out of the check they gave me. You get the picture.

All I know is that every time I have not given the full 10% to my church, I have had bad stuff happen....it makes no sense to me because the Bible seems clear to me that we're not under the tithe law at all anymore....but either way, I don't want bad things with my money happening, so I tithe. Every bit of our money is money that God gives us anyway, so giving 10% or more back to Him is the least I can do.

Migdala said:

I give my 10% to the church, and then I give to drives/donations/homeless people, etc. as the Lord puts them in my path. I have been blessed by doing this more times than I can count, although I don't do it to be blessed-I do it because I hate to see people hurting, and I love to help people when I can.

Yes, I give on every bit of money that comes in my home. For instance, my paycheck of course, and anything else. Like, I rent two bedrooms out of my home, and I tithe 10% on the rent my roommates pay me. Today I won a $10 gift card at work, and I'll give a dollar out of that. I had a yard sale a few weeks ago and made about $70, and I tithed out of that. I got an insurance check for some tile damage, and I tithed out of the check they gave me. You get the picture.

All I know is that every time I have not given the full 10% to my church, I have had bad stuff happen....it makes no sense to me because the Bible seems clear to me that we're not under the tithe law at all anymore....but either way, I don't want bad things with my money happening, so I tithe. Every bit of our money is money that God gives us anyway, so giving 10% or more back to Him is the least I can do.

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People are taught the "Old" Testament is outdated and we are legalistic if we follow it. Yeshua said, "I have not come to nullify the Law and the prophpets but to confirm them" and said "not 1 jot or tittle" would be done away with "until Heaven & earth have passed away." He told the Pharisees that they did right to tithe from their spices, though he chastised them for being lacking in mercy and justice.

If the Law is done away with then we can worship other gods, commit adultery, murder (so abortion is not a problem) etc. The Law has not been done away with. See Acts 15 where Paul tells nonJewish converts to refrain from blood and strangled animals (not killed according to Mosaic law & with the blood still inside them). He was telling them to stick to Mosaic food laws that prohibit the eating of blood. In Acts 21 (see below) James tells Paul to follow a Mosaic vow so that people would know it is not true that he teaches people to abandon Moses & the Law.

Therefore we can be sure that Paul, and all the apostles, tithed.

LoricaLady said:

People are taught the "Old" Testament is outdated and we are legalistic if we follow it. Yeshua said, "I have not come to nullify the Law and the prophpets but to confirm them" and said "not 1 jot or tittle" would be done away with "until Heaven & earth have passed away." He told the Pharisees that they did right to tithe from their spices, though he chastised them for being lacking in mercy and justice.

If the Law is done away with then we can worship other gods, commit adultery, murder (so abortion is not a problem) etc. The Law has not been done away with. See Acts 15 where Paul tells nonJewish converts to refrain from blood and strangled animals (not killed according to Mosaic law & with the blood still inside them). He was telling them to stick to Mosaic food laws that prohibit the eating of blood. In Acts 21 (see below) James tells Paul to follow a Mosaic vow so that people would know it is not true that he teaches people to abandon Moses & the Law.

Therefore we can be sure that Paul, and all the apostles, tithed.

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Yes, but at the same time, there were 613 OT laws, and I don't know of a single Christian who keeps all of them. Some were a foreshadow of Jesus, such as animal sacrifices of course. And I don't know many Christians who go around with blue tassels on their clothes, like in Numbers 15:39.

I always thought that we are still to keep the 10 commandments of God, but that all the other laws were done away with. It would seem though, that if we are to keep the tithe law, which was given to the Levites, then we would be under obligation to keep all 613 laws as well.......

I don't keep the Food Laws myself, except for not eating blood like in Acts 15-Jesus had said that what goes into the mouth does not make us unclean, but what comes out from the heart. But at the same time, I know that pork, for instance is really bad for you (but oh, so yummy!), as well as shrimp, crab, etc....because they eat the waste from the ocean. <gag>

. Paul had said that the Holy Spirit gave them no instructions other than not eating the blood of animals, and staying away from sexual sin, abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.

It's rather confusing to know exactly which of these laws we are to keep, without "falling from grace"

Migdala said:

Yes, but at the same time, there were 613 OT laws, and I don't know of a single Christian who keeps all of them. Some were a foreshadow of Jesus, such as animal sacrifices of course. And I don't know many Christians who go around with blue tassels on their clothes, like in Numbers 15:39.

I always thought that we are still to keep the 10 commandments of God, but that all the other laws were done away with. It would seem though, that if we are to keep the tithe law, which was given to the Levites, then we would be under obligation to keep all 613 laws as well.......

I don't keep the Food Laws myself, except for not eating blood like in Acts 15-Jesus had said that what goes into the mouth does not make us unclean, but what comes out from the heart. But at the same time, I know that pork, for instance is really bad for you (but oh, so yummy!), as well as shrimp, crab, etc....because they eat the waste from the ocean. <gag>

. Paul had said that the Holy Spirit gave them no instructions other than not eating the blood of animals, and staying away from sexual sin, abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.

It's rather confusing to know exactly which of these laws we are to keep, without "falling from grace"

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I wear blue tassles, the tzit tzit, once a day when I say the Lord's Prayer. We are told to wear them so I wear them. We are told to wear Scriptures on our wrist so I get bracelets where there are things like tags with Bible verses on them. If we are told to do it then to do it means blessings for us.

The 613 Laws are not all Scriptural. Whoever compiled them added in some traditions of men.

Of course there arer some laws we cannot keep. Since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood scattered we cannot keep some of them. We can keep the ones we can keep though. When Daniel and other righteous men were in Babylon and there was no Temple they still kept the Law as best as they could.

When Paul said the Holy Spirit only gave a few instructions he was talking about for starters. Notice that he mentions quickly in Acts 15 "Is not Moses preached every Sabbath in the Synogogues?" He said this because new converts traditionally went to the Synagogues on the Sabbath to learn the Law. The original readers understood that the converts would learn the Law over time there. As it says in Scriptures, Paul is hard to understand sometimes. How much more so in a strange land with a very different culture and language.

It is not that hard to know which laws to keep. Check and see which, if any, either YHWH or Yeshua said have been changed. The answer is not any. "YHWH changes not." Since Yeshua is One with Him He doesn't change anything YHWH did. And in fact, again, Yeshua never changed any of the Law and stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come for that purpose plus always upheld the Law.

That is why he validated even the tithing of herbs by the Pharisees.

The laws that make us "fall from grace" are the traditions of men ones. (It is confusing to read Paul, again, because the English word "law" is being used and it can have many meanings.) For ex. Yeshua healed on the Sabbath and told a man to carry his mat on that day w/o violating the Law since the Law does not speak against such things. It was traditions of men that were being violated, and making the Pharisees mad, only. Tithing was not a tradition of men. It was from the Mosaic law.