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^^^exactly, it doesn't say "I was hungry, so you gave me some money in hopes I'd make it somewhere where I could buy something to eat..."
Well if everyone did that then my point would be invalid wouldn't it.
So does a Learjet for the Kingdom of God count? Or maybe a new Porsche for the Associate pastor would be more glorifying to God?
No, if you lusted, therefore you DID commit adultery...Jesus doesn't speak of the same for violence that have been made aware. No, I am saying that if we are giving 10% or 5% or 50% it is where your heart lies.
You said "Should I say, 'I'm a little bit greedy because I bought a fancy new TV with God's money, so I might as well be completely greedy and spend it all on myself.'" But I would suggest saying, "I know that buying these things does not glory God, so I should not by them at all!" Yet, that was not even a possible alternative in your equation or in mine for that matter.
My question remains, what in our "Christian" society make these monetary things permissible and covering our eyes to the truth that we should give up everything? God's Grace is the usual answer I get, but that's a complete cop-out for someone who does not want to own up to the admittance that it is not what the Bible teaches in how we, as real Christians, should live our lives.
The really scary part is that Christian life is a complete contradiction to a capitalist society and would be more fitting with a socialist one. I am not for socialism in the slightest, but the words of the Bible scream to me that we should be sustaining each other and not just those that we closely care about with conditions being placed and lines drawn. Where is the line drawn and why?
Yet, I beg of you to answer my questions before asking your own, please. I have never felt like I have given to God by dropping money in a collection plate. I have felt like I gave to God when I helped an old woman and her grandson clean out her garage though.
No no, friend...it affords these things. If we were to live in a community in which we were truly to live as the Bible suggests, our community would build houses, transportation, and RID ourselves of worldly desires because we have the tools to do so without money even being involved. The fact of the matter, it is more convenient for us to just pay some one else to build us a house, construct us a car, and buy **** we don't need in order to satisfy our inherit need for ownership (this is mine so no one can take it away because I paid for it), greed, and tangible comfort.
Why does it matter what everyone else does?
I agree. But, what you do with your money reflects where your treasure is, and where you treasure lies, there also your heart lies. If you spend a big chunk of money on a new TV and entertainment system, what doe sthat say about what yo value? It says that you value entertainment. If you spend it on a fancy car, this suggests that you value fancy cars. OTOH, if you give lots of money to oversea missionaries, to the work of your local church, to ministries that serve the poor, and so forth, you are suggesting that you value the work that God is doing through His church.
I agree with you that we should not be using our money for selfish things. But, a little bit of sin does not justify a lot of sin.
Like I said, we should give 100% to God. 99% is sin. Most of us are probably giving a lot less than that. God's grace is sufficient to allow us to grow into deeper levels of generosity and to forgive our selfishness. This doesn't mean that God's grace makes our selfishness "permissible." It means that God recognizes our sinfulness and that Jesus has already paid the price. We are free then to respond to God's generosity with as much generosity as we can muster, rather than to earn God's love through strict adherence to legalistic principles.
The Jerusalem church acted very much like a socialist society with one important exception: it was the product of voluntary generosity rather than coercive collectivism. God does want us to choose to live to live selflessly, voluntarily giving sacrificially in love for one another. Socialism is about the government forcing people to give what they have to the government so that the government can distribute as it sees fit.
You are giving to God when you share of your time or your money. If you don't feel that your church is doing God's will with the money it receives, you should ask to look at the budget. If the leadership won't share it with you or if you do not see God's hand in it, find a different church. A godly church leadership will freely share with its membership its use of money.
Some of the things that I see my money used for in my church: a feeding program and church sponsorship in rural Nicaragua; a food pantry that serves the local poor; outreach ministries to the community; a youth program that teaches kids from some of the roughest neighborhoods about Jesus and gives them a safe and wholesome place to hang out once a week.
If that is how you feel, what are you doing to make that community a reality?
Because these people are suppose to be an example of what a Christian should be.
Are you saying that it's now okay to sin? It's okay to live in a little sin without acknowledgement and repentance?
Then why do we do it? You're still not answering the questions.
Do you "want" to give up everything you own? Is there a desire to do so?
proving my point in how far we are from that....
Again, you have not told me why I need to give money to the church and not directly to those in need?
Great! That is wonderful that your church is doing all these things. Our missionaries are currently in Haiti and Chili, as well a youth leadership programs weekly around town sponsored by our church. Why don't we give more to the church then?
Aboslutely nothing except *****ing about it. I tell you what, I know I'm a big hypocrite for saying all of these things because I'm just another pot screaming that we are all made out of clay.
My point is that I don't want to give up these things. I like them and what they do for me, selfishly, too much to convince myself otherwise. I don't go out and build houses because I work a fulltime job and selfishly value my off time more than the satisfaction of performing after hour, saturday and sunday labor. I don't quit my job in order to have more time because it pays really well and makes me feel like my college education was not in vain. If I had to give away my stuff in order that a homeless man should live, I'd keep my stuff and justify it by saying "It was his time." Because I apparently value my stuff over a single human life.
Think about it. If I could sell all my stuff for $10,000 and give it to one person to afford their medical treatment and save their life. I could do it (once really...or until I was able to acquire more stuff and money) but I have that opportunity every day, realize it, accept that I'm not going to do it, and play Call of Duty on my 1080P projector w/ surround sound. I'd rather do that than save a life. What a wicked and shameful person I am, and what makes it worse is, I'm not doing anything to actively change it. It was hard even typing all of that "out loud." God have mercy on me
here's what I know about tithing. i didn't do it for a long time. my wife and I tried unsuccessfully for 8 years to have a child. we spent tens of thousands of dollars and no results. at that time i would have given everything i owned to have a child. the odd part about it was we were never told we could not have children by the doctors. well finally God blessed us with a son and a few years later I was looking through some old checks and found my first tithe check to our Church, doing a little math I was able to count back and wouldn't you know it my son was conceived about a week or two after writing that check. Needless to say, 15 years later i am still tithing and carry that check with me everyday to remind me of God's faithfulness. all i know is if you withhold anything from God doesn't matter if it's time, talent or money it only hurts you.
"Give and it shall be given to you"
My favorite Bible verse during our ordeal was Matthew 7:11. We named our son Matthew meaning "gift of God" and he was born on July the 11th. Pretty cool huh?
I would encourage you to look to Jesus to see what a Christian should be, not to other sinners.
No. I didn't say that at all. I am just stating the reality that we are sinners and that our only hope is God's grace.
Why do we sin? Because, we are sinners. If that doesn't answer the question, then I suppose I need you to rephrase the question.
Do I want to? No. Do I want to want to? Yes. Therein lies the difficulty; there is conflict between what I want to do (satisfy my selfish desires) and the result that I want to obtain (to become a selfless and Christlike person).
I agree; we are far from the ideal. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current conversation, however.
I don't recall telling you that you should not give money directly to those in need or that you need to give to the church. I did suggest that I believe that the church is a good place to start in giving, but if God is calling you to give elsewhere, I would not argue. What is more important is that you are giving; how much and to whom is between you and God.
That's a great question. The reason that I give the amount that I do is that, if I gave more, I would not be able to meet my bills each month. I would like to give more and our budget is built around increasing our giving as our income increases. But, ultimately, a certain portion of my income has to be used to pay rent, buy food, and pay bills (including paying debts that I acquired before God really convicted me about my finances). Part of being a good steward of money is using it to meet one's needs and to be responsible about one's obligations, including debts that we foolishly accumulate.
I appreciate the honesty of your response. I encourage you to pray for the willingness to change that which falls short. God is faithful and will grow you, but very often, because of our own resistance, our progress is slow. I struggle with my own issues of selfishness, not so much in regard to material things, but more in terms of a desire for acceptance and acclamation. The prayer that God has been encouraging me with is this:
"God, I offer myself to Thee--to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.
May I do Thy will always!"
I pray that He will grow both of us brother. Thanks for sharing.
then why only 10%? Is God only worth 10% of my money?
Start with 10%....Scripture states that we OWE God this....
"Giving" doesn't even BEGIN until AFTER 10%. Anything before that is STEALING.
That's the way to look at it realistically
Dies-l, you give 10% or more as "grace-giving," that's good. The problem I have is with 10% as "law-giving." The idea that all christians must do this.
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