Tithing and budgeted giving.

OLDGUY said:

I do give money. All I really was asking was as per my example, does that count toward tithing? Or would it be consider the same? Cause the way I do it is preferable to me.

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Not sure about that...really. Just be careful to giving to a certain exact cause and counting it as tithing. I think it only counts as such in a more general fund where the giver does not have so much control on where it is spent....

That make sense at all?

98cwitr said:

im picking my money over church, i'm not ashamed to admit that. If it really mattered to us that much we would give more than just money. Money affords convenience, that is ALL it does. I'd rather be cold about it than luke warm.

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Money is the root of all evil. The Bible speaks very clearly about how one should value money. That rich man-camel through the eye of a needle parable...is talking about exactly what your are saying.

What if people gave 10% of their time rather than 10 % of their income? That's roughly 16 hours a week dedicated to volunteer service. Let's say you make $10 an hour. That's worth about $160 a week, given directly to God's children. You would have to make $7200 a month to reach the monetary equivalent. I wonder which God would appreciate more?

Make that $6400 a month (badmath), still a lot of money.

I've thought about giving everything I own away (because of that parable), my computers, my HDTV, 1080P projector w/ surround sound, my car, my savings, or pawning it and giving away the money. Then I look at our society, and my Christian "family" and see no one doing that, but coming to church in a new Lexus and having a half a million dollar home in a fancy subdivision and a condo on an island in coastal Georgia.

I realize I went to private school my entire life, conditioned from a very early age to get a good job and be self-substaining, get a college degree, go to grad school, be SOMETHING. I realized back then that my family, a God-fearing and loving grandmother, aunt, uncle, cousins (mom and dad were atheist, so I dont include them but they influenced this as well) were not living according to what I was being taught in sunday school, but my trust was in them over those at church.

Do you not teach your children to do the same? Why don't we give up everything? Bible instructs us to do so? Why do we draw the line? Greed? Convenience? You tell me.....

Here is my problem.
Jesus was consistent is His teachings about things of this world.
These things such as money do not really have a place, need, or purpose in heaven.
Money being one of these things comes into a tricky spot.
The church which is supposed to promote a pathway to God and which is supposed to be the keeper of it's flock along with the minister, priest, preacher etc...
seems to me for the most part are too caught-up in money.
I do not think that God requires me to tithe.
I think that God requires me to sincerely give from my heart to help my fellow man.
Jesus told us that we should put no God before the one true God and to love our fellow man. He told us that all of the commandments rest on this.
I think a church and it's preacher should be poor and living from day to day if they are truly following Him. Because they would give as the widow did and would have nothing left.

OLDGUY said:

I do not think that God requires me to tithe.
I think that God requires me to sincerely give from my heart to help my fellow man.

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A true Christian speaks.

OLDGUY said:

Here is my problem.
Jesus was consistent is His teachings about things of this world.
These things such as money do not really have a place, need, or purpose in heaven.
Money being one of these things comes into a tricky spot.
The church which is supposed to promote a pathway to God and which is supposed to be the keeper of it's flock along with the minister, priest, preacher etc...
seems to me for the most part are too caught-up in money.
I do not think that God requires me to tithe.
I think that God requires me to sincerely give from my heart to help my fellow man.
Jesus told us that we should put no God before the one true God and to love our fellow man. He told us that all of the commandments rest on this.
I think a church and it's preacher should be poor and living from day to day if they are truly following Him. Because they would give as the widow did and would have nothing left.

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couldn't have put it any better.

OLDGUY said:

I do give money. All I really was asking was as per my example, does that count toward tithing? Or would it be consider the same? Cause the way I do it is preferable to me.

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I think we need to be careful about thinking of "what counts." This language sounds like we are looking at giving as an obligation, not as a cheerful and voluntary act. The way I look at it, if you feel the best way to bless Jesus with your money is to give to the homeless guy on the street, then go for it. If you want to give to the Red Cross or some other charity, I can't fault you for that either. Personally, I think that the foundation of God's work is in the Church, so that is the best place to start in giving. But, the important thing is that you trust God enough to be willing to use His money to support His work.

98cwitr said:

im picking my money over church, i'm not ashamed to admit that. If it really mattered to us that much we would give more than just money. Money affords convenience, that is ALL it does. I'd rather be cold about it than luke warm. God nor Jesus need our money, the church does and other people do. We use it to take care of one another (ie: those "less fortunate).

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This comment speaks volumes. I appreciate your honesty, but I do hope that you will take time to examine what Scripture says about the topic. Like I said, 2 Corinthians 8-9 has a lot to say on the topic. Also check out 1 Timothy 6 and and 1 John 3. I don't see anywhere that Scripture teaches that money merely "affords convenience." Keep in mind, it's really not ours to begin with. We are but trusted servants, and we will be judged by how we use what is given.

Hypnos said:

What if people gave 10% of their time rather than 10 % of their income? That's roughly 16 hours a week dedicated to volunteer service. Let's say you make $10 an hour. That's worth about $160 a week, given directly to God's children. You would have to make $7200 a month to reach the monetary equivalent. I wonder which God would appreciate more?

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People should donate their time. People should donate their money. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Part of the reason that I don't believe in a legalistic notion of tithing is that we should never do anything just to meet a requirement. If I have time to give to serve and love God and other people, I should give it. If I have money to give, I should give it. My experience is that the people who are most generous with the former tend to be the most generous with the latter, and vice versa. By the same token, those who don't give of their time also tend to be the most tight fisted with their money and vice versa. A generous heart pervades one's life in one's attitude with both time and money as does a greedy heart.

98cwitr said:

I've thought about giving everything I own away (because of that parable), my computers, my HDTV, 1080P projector w/ surround sound, my car, my savings, or pawning it and giving away the money. Then I look at our society, and my Christian "family" and see no one doing that, but coming to church in a new Lexus and having a half a million dollar home in a fancy subdivision and a condo on an island in coastal Georgia.

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Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

IOW, don't judge what is right by looking at what other "Christians" do. Look at what the Bible teaches.

I realize I went to private school my entire life, conditioned from a very early age to get a good job and be self-substaining, get a college degree, go to grad school, be SOMETHING. I realized back then that my family, a God-fearing and loving grandmother, aunt, uncle, cousins (mom and dad were atheist, so I dont include them but they influenced this as well) were not living according to what I was being taught in sunday school, but my trust was in them over those at church.

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The world teaches that we should be ambitious to get a good job, make lots of money. The Bible teaches that we should be ambitious to equip ourselves to serve God's Kingdom. There is nothing wrong with ambition. There is plenty wrong with ambition directed towards achieving selfish gain.

Do you not teach your children to do the same? Why don't we give up everything? Bible instructs us to do so? Why do we draw the line? Greed? Convenience? You tell me.....

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Are you saying that, because we should give 100%, if we give less than 100%, we might as well give nothing? We are sinners; we fall short of the 100% in every area of our lives, but we are still called to strive toward perfection. I don't say, "well, I lusted, so I might as well commit adultery" or "I got angry and thought a malicious though, so I might as well go and kill the guy that ticked me off." Should I say, "I'm a little bit greedy because I bought a fancy new TV with God's money, so I might as well be completely greedy and spend it all on myself."? This seems like what you are saying.

I don't see your references meeting the contexts of our discussion directly. I see some vague points about reaping what you sow and how all things come from the Lord. I agree, the fact I have this money is a blessing. But you have to realize that money is man made and even the idea of currency is a product of man, not God.

Money does afford convenience and only afford convenience. It serves no other purpose. We don't need money and we can accomplish everything that money affords us without it. Money is a way of trading because we don't want to produce something ourselves, or give back in a similar fashion. Money only makes things easier.

dies-l
I respect your opinion. But please remember that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are the foundation. The church is just a way to bring people to that foundation. Please reread the letters to the seven churches in Revelations.
You cannot serve God an mammon. You cannot serve ttwo masters. What do you think ambition leads to? We are human. It will always lead to greed.

98cwitr said:

I don't see your references meeting the contexts of our discussion directly. I see some vague points about reaping what you sow and how all things come from the Lord.

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In the 2 Corinthians passage, Paul is encouraging the Corinthians to give generously to the struggling Church in Jerusalem. He is applauding the Macedonians, who were a fairly poor community, for their willingness to give liberally. He is suggesting to the Corinthians, who were quite wealthy by comparison that they should give all the more generously. He explains that one of the main purposes of this type of giving is to bring about some sense of equality within the church: the richer members should support the poorer members by giving to the Church so that the Church can distribute resources fairly. He reminds them of God's faithfulness and that, even if they give beyond their means, that God will continue to provide for their needs. Thus, to give generously is act of faith and trust in God.

The 1 John passage tells us that we are to follow Jesus' example in loving one another. We are to give sacrificially to one another, just as Jesus gave his life for us. If we are not willing to part with our resources to help those in need, we are not loving. Whoever does not love does not know God.

Paul encourages Timothy to seek contentment and godliness rather than wealth. He advises him that the desire to be rich is always corrupting and that we should flee from it.

I agree, the fact I have this money is a blessing. But you have to realize that money is man made and even the idea of currency is a product of man, not God.

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Money does afford convenience and only afford convenience. It serves no other purpose. We don't need money and we can accomplish everything that money affords us without it. Money is a way of trading because we don't want to produce something ourselves, or give back in a similar fashion. Money only makes things easier.

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God blesses you so that you can bless others. Money is the main tangible resource that we have. It provides us with the means to give Jesus something to eat or drink or clothes to wear. It provides us a home to share with Him. It provides us transportation to visit Him in prison. It also provides us a means to buy ourselves the desires of the world. It is a tool and what we do with it is our choice.

OLDGUY said:

dies-l
I respect your opinion. But please remember that God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are the foundation. The church is just a way to bring people to that foundation. Please reread the letters to the seven churches in Revelations.
You cannot serve God an mammon. You cannot serve ttwo masters. What do you think ambition leads to? We are human. It will always lead to greed.

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Ambition is nothing more than the drive to meet a goal. If the goal is to love God and serve others, then ambition strengthens our service to God. If our goal is to make lots of money and own lots of things, then ambition allows us to run from God even faster. Ambition is a good thing, but like most good things, it has the greatest potential for evil. It's opposite, ambivalence, however, is never a good thing.

I truly am sorry. But I call ambition what it is. I call the Holy Spirit what it is and I do not mix the two.
My point is that I really care that you understand. I hope I truly hope that you will take the time to think about this:
Right now - for the last two days - I have been trying to hire a guy that is out of work. His wife lost her job 5 months ago. There asre some things not quite right about is employment application. I am in a position that I can help, but there may be problems for me later. If I felt that this was an obligation I would simply give a donation to the chrurch and go home. But if you truly understand thae parable about the 2 children. One said he would not work in the fields, but he did. The other said he would work in the fields, but did not. Who actually did what was asked?
I really hope that you will reread your Bible. NT especially. When you do please do so or try to do so with the idea that Mom, baseball, apple pie and what people have told you were the right thing to do may not be actually what God was saying was the right thing to do. Read the scriptures with the thought that anything dealing with this world has nothing to do with what Christ was saying. "give unto Ceasar...."

dies-l said:

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

IOW, don't judge what is right by looking at what other "Christians" do. Look at what the Bible teaches.

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Well if everyone did that then my point would be invalid wouldn't it.

The world teaches that we should be ambitious to get a good job, make lots of money. The Bible teaches that we should be ambitious to equip ourselves to serve God's Kingdom. There is nothing wrong with ambition. There is plenty wrong with ambition directed towards achieving selfish gain.

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So does a Learjet for the Kingdom of God count? Or maybe a new Porsche for the Associate pastor would be more glorifying to God?

Are you saying that, because we should give 100%, if we give less than 100%, we might as well give nothing? We are sinners; we fall short of the 100% in every area of our lives, but we are still called to strive toward perfection. I don't say, "well, I lusted, so I might as well commit adultery" or "I got angry and thought a malicious though, so I might as well go and kill the guy that ticked me off." Should I say, "I'm a little bit greedy because I bought a fancy new TV with God's money, so I might as well be completely greedy and spend it all on myself."? This seems like what you are saying.

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No, if you lusted, therefore you DID commit adultery...Jesus doesn't speak of the same for violence that have been made aware. No, I am saying that if we are giving 10% or 5% or 50% it is where your heart lies.

You said "Should I say, 'I'm a little bit greedy because I bought a fancy new TV with God's money, so I might as well be completely greedy and spend it all on myself.'" But I would suggest saying, "I know that buying these things does not glory God, so I should not by them at all!" Yet, that was not even a possible alternative in your equation or in mine for that matter.

My question remains, what in our "Christian" society make these monetary things permissible and covering our eyes to the truth that we should give up everything? God's Grace is the usual answer I get, but that's a complete cop-out for someone who does not want to own up to the admittance that it is not what the Bible teaches in how we, as real Christians, should live our lives.

The really scary part is that Christian life is a complete contradiction to a capitalist society and would be more fitting with a socialist one. I am not for socialism in the slightest, but the words of the Bible scream to me that we should be sustaining each other and not just those that we closely care about with conditions being placed and lines drawn. Where is the line drawn and why?

Yet, I beg of you to answer my questions before asking your own, please. I have never felt like I have given to God by dropping money in a collection plate. I have felt like I gave to God when I helped an old woman and her grandson clean out her garage though.

It provides us a home to share with Him. It provides us transportation to visit Him in prison. It also provides us a means to buy ourselves the desires of the world. It is a tool and what we do with it is our choice.

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No no, friend...it affords these things. If we were to live in a community in which we were truly to live as the Bible suggests, our community would build houses, transportation, and RID ourselves of worldly desires because we have the tools to do so without money even being involved. The fact of the matter, it is more convenient for us to just pay some one else to build us a house, construct us a car, and buy **** we don't need in order to satisfy our inherit need for ownership (this is mine so no one can take it away because I paid for it), greed, and tangible comfort.

here's what I know about tithing. i didn't do it for a long time. my wife and I tried unsuccessfully for 8 years to have a child. we spent tens of thousands of dollars and no results. at that time i would have given everything i owned to have a child. the odd part about it was we were never told we could not have children by the doctors. well finally God blessed us with a son and a few years later I was looking through some old checks and found my first tithe check to our Church, doing a little math I was able to count back and wouldn't you know it my son was conceived about a week or two after writing that check. Needless to say, 15 years later i am still tithing and carry that check with me everyday to remind me of God's faithfulness. all i know is if you withhold anything from God doesn't matter if it's time, talent or money it only hurts you.

"Give and it shall be given to you"

My favorite Bible verse during our ordeal was Matthew 7:11. We named our son Matthew meaning "gift of God" and he was born on July the 11th. Pretty cool huh?

^^^see now...that's awesome...and tangible...and proof that tithing can be something. Thanks for sharing that.

98cwitr said:

im picking my money over church, i'm not ashamed to admit that. If it really mattered to us that much we would give more than just money. Money affords convenience, that is ALL it does. I'd rather be cold about it than luke warm. God nor Jesus need our money, the church does and other people do. We use it to take care of one another (ie: those "less fortunate).

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Qoute:
"I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me drink."
Jesus Christ

^^^exactly, it doesn't say "I was hungry, so you gave me some money in hopes I'd make it somewhere where I could buy something to eat..."