'Timezones' , an abomination to God?

[rwc109]

I think God solved the problem of timekeeping long before mankind existed and it was very late that man [as a whole] realised the problem

[I say that, but most people today don't even realsie that there is a problem ,least of all that it affects keeping holy days]

One probably needs little more than Newton's idea of time for everyday 'practical' timekeeping :-

time flows evenly [i.e. COMTINUOUSLY with NO jumps] , the same 'time' everywhere with the SAME time [no difference in time between different places as with LOCAL time]

--- the modern term for this is absolute time, all clocks everywhere in the world [or even in space] keep the same numbers all the time....

The system is free of all the inconsistencies [paradoxes] of local time and the awful confusions , dislocations and upset at artificial discontinuities introduced by local 'timezones'

BUT the local time WE USE is mathematically [necessarily] inconsistent because it is theoretically impossible to map time onto a globe by any other consistent means than absolute time [which MOST don't use]...

In the absence of any contender whatsoever,we KNOW then that God's holy days are kept by absolute timekeeping and the scripture shows us that days start at sunset at the site of Jeruslaem.

In History as soon as the correction needed to keep Jerusalem absolute time [AJT} was needed at a greater accuracy than within one hour leeway [one hour is the maximum accuracy attainable up to that time and also the maximum deviation in the Hebrews timekeeping from absolte Jerusalem time during their exiles in Egypt and Babylon] ...

then God made available to man [through inspiration] the means to calculate and the equipment [public sundials built by the Romans!] to know if they desired when exavctly the time that holy days begin anywhere on earth...

Thus the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ followed and lagged the spread of the roman Empire and both the gospel and the means to keep AJT spread to the gentile House of Israel hand in hand with scripture ...eventually reaching all nations where they were originally scattered by God]

Thus local time [in its two main variants, International standard and Halakhic time kept by the Jews] is the cause of many people NOT keeping holy days by this false tradition [i.e. not true to scripture!] and causes abomination before God in polluting of His holy days [even by some of modern Israel!

also it causes many people who follow church traditions but really would like to keep holy days... to not do so... !

the absurd problems that local time causes unnecessarily make it an awful choice for an international standard [there is no need whatever to include the inconsitencies of local time into global timekeeping] but particularly bizarre is that most Jews keep a form of local time too.

So there simply is no timezone problem with God's absolute timekeeping, man craeted the madness for himself by following Roman ideas about worshipping the sun [Roman time was DEFINED in terms of sun overhead being local noon] ... it seemed a good idea to the Romans. but like many things that they did ,it is an abomination to God... christian churches follow the Romans a great deal in not keeping to the holy things of scripture but curiously still keeping the unholy pagan days substituted for holy days by the Roman state.

All we need to keep holy days and avoid paradoxes is absolute time and days starting at sunset Jerusalem, this is how to keep holy time for working out holy days...

but absolute time would in any case make a BETTER-BY-FAR working system in place of the fiasco called local time that is the way most epople keep time , the International standard fro timekeeping [but it is inconsistent!].

Can people appreciate the effect of introducing timezone time less than 400years ago on sabbath-keeping ?

It changed the TIME that days were kept worldwide, whether the days were considered holy or unholy... but changing the time of keeping a holy day MAKES the keeping unholy because holy days DON'T change ...!

many seem to have little lovingness ,patience or even interest in the problems ithat LOCAL time, the International STANDARD for timekeeping, causes people near the two variable man-made date-lines!

....that is people who wish to keep sabbath who get confused when they get two days sabbath or no sabbath at all just by crossing the dateline at the wrong(?) time { anything from 0-2 days sabbath in any week ,or even sabbath in any number of bits!

....horrendous paradoxes and confusion resut from what is an intrinsically inconsistent way of keeping time !

What then of holy sabbath of God that is not kept by christian churches at all, why is it at all relevant, why did Jesus say that it was made for mankind? why is it NOT kept by christian churches , yet they keep an unholy day instead that is not God's sign to his people?

let us explore where it went wromg and what is in scripture to set us right again :-

I think that Jesus kept the old covenant and so could bring in the new, but few seem to also know that BOTH covenants were specifically with Israel.

So even Israel will soon be wholly converted to the realisation that the new covenant is the only sensible way forward for sinners because keeping the old covenant has proved nigh on impossible for all but Jesus,

but you would make a big mistake I think in not seeing that there is a lot more in the OT than just the old covenant [the actual new covenant is all BASED in the OT for one thing!!]

Thus we certainly don't need the Levitical priesthood because Christ caused it to 'wax old' for its ineffectiveness in saving mankind [except Jesus and then through him and the NEW covenant, Israel - and then through Israel the whole of mankind!]

and all those sacrifices of the old covenant are but shadows whereas we have a real immortal spirit high priest who can deliver the effective request that God send us the spirit of truth if we are moved by God to seek His truth with yearnings and prayers and meditation.

Thus with the rent veil of the temple, there are no earthly priests NEEDED now until the immortal royal priesthood is set up at Christ's return,[God only EVER set up the Levite and the Melchisedec Orders, no other orders of priests are valid scripturally!]

So WE are ourselves the temple [!] and so need no earthly priests [ministering inside of us as the temples ,as-it-were],

we have Christ as high priest to intercede for our sins and our Father to teach us through the spirit of truth

...That surely is enough! we do not need any mortal priesthood for our redemption.

...so we can adore our God, learn His truth without corruptions of traditions of men, and through that love our fellow man

...all too wonderful for me, I am overwhelmed with this grace through love,praise our beauteous God for the love He is

..and we can deserve none of it

...so we accept our suffering for a little while longer with rejoicing in confidence in love itself, looking toward the antichrist [satanical christ look-alike] soon and then the return of our beloved champion, our saviour in power of perfect truth

Now that sabbath thing is a shadow of our eternal rest in God, it really isn't fulfilled yet, so it is still available as an optional unconditional blessing made for any man who chooses freely to avail himself of the sign of our God.....why not?

Why? here are the scriptures that show the relevance of sabbth in the future :-

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.


Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
Jer 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Jer 17:25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

 

[The Tweaker]

Are you serious or is this some sort of satire? The reason time wasn't a problem in the OT is because most of the world occupied just a handful of time zones, and there was no way to switch between them without days of walking. Anyway, over that small a distance the time-difference wouldn't be noticable.

In the modern world, however, time-zones are a necessity. The only other alternative is, as you say, universal time. The problem with universal time is that it's the same as having your clock synchronized to the main clock in a city far, far away. Have you tried changing your watch to the time in, say, Greenwitch or Jerusalem? You'll find it's very difficult to use. True, time-zones and the confusion they cause will be gone, but so will any semblance of normality as related to time.

Do you seriously think God is against time-zones??

 

[rwc109]

Are you serious or is this some sort of satire? The reason time wasn't a problem in the OT is because most of the world occupied just a handful of time zones, and there was no way to switch between them without days of walking. Anyway, over that small a distance the time-difference wouldn't be noticable.

In the modern world, however, time-zones are a necessity. The only other alternative is, as you say, universal time. The problem with universal time is that it's the same as having your clock synchronized to the main clock in a city far, far away. Have you tried changing your watch to the time in, say, Greenwitch or Jerusalem? You'll find it's very difficult to use. True, time-zones and the confusion they cause will be gone, but so will any semblance of normality as related to time.

Do you seriously think God is against time-zones??

Hi Tweaker,
Just Look and see if God defined a dateline [one can't have loacl timezones without a pardoxical dateline] ... He didn't, so God's tmekeeping is absolute
Now besides th bizarre paradoxes of local time which preclude it's being used for timekeeping at all , it gives adifferent timing for days that God's absolute time, thus one hAS to use absolute Jerusalem time and know whensunset is iin Jerusalem on 'Fridays' if one wants the optional blessing of holy sabbath for not toiling in the world on God's holy wekkly sabbaths

here's the relevance :-

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

---- if you read the context of this passage you will see that it is referring to the future, so the real holy sabbath of God kept by absolute Jerusalem time is highly relevant according to scripture, the very idetification sign of Israel :-

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

---- also the sign is in direct opposition to the 'mark' [same word as 'sign' in the original scripture] of the Beast...

 

[Knee V]

rwc109,

What you're saying about time zones and absolute time is completely scripturally unfounded. The Bible teaches nothing of the sort. All the OT holy days and feasts can find their fulfillment in Christ. Using the sabbath as an example:

Matt 12:8, "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
In the same context, concerning the sabbath He says, "I desire compassion, and not sacrifice."
Mark 2:27, "Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Heb 4:1-16 I am not going to quote the entire thing, but this passage teaches that Christ has entered into the rest that was not attained in the Old Covenant period, and has rested from his works. And we are to be dilligent to enter into that rest.

The New Covenant is not a covenant of sabbaths and holy days. All that was fulfilled in Christ. And when we see our sinfullness and truly repent and believe upon Christ, that which Christ accomplished through his life and death are imputed to us. It's not a gospel of doing the right things to gain God's favor. It's God saving us out of sin and death when we can't do the right things. But Christ did for us. And that's what makes the good news truly GOOD NEWS!

 

[Achichem]

I disagree with time zone haters, because the way I look at it the sun hits every part of the world at a different time, and the first day ended at different times in different places. I do understand and respect his point; he is being in my opinion being obsessive compulsive in believing that Jerusalem is Gods beacon of time. However nothing wrong with being a little obsessive over such important issues.
Nor do I agree with his argument that non-Sabbath worship is a mark of the beast.

knee-v,
You are quite wrong on the matter of either the Sabbath or the holy day set.

Allow me to explain:

First the only holy days fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Jesus was the Passover and days of unleavened bread.


Note,
That the next holy day is Pentecost, which was also fulfilled, but not in Christ’s death, but in the giving of the spirit unto his people.

The fall harvest feasts are all yet unfulfilled as well as the Sabbath day

The holy days are the Fathers, the sons and the spirits, kept since the beginning till now:

Leviticus 23:2:

"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.

or Jesus

Mark 2:28:

Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

Thing people often bring up:

Mark 2:27:

And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.”

Why was The Sabbath was made for man? I tell you as with every feast it is a great step of Gods plan for all of mankind .

The New Covenant is not a covenant of sabbaths and holy days. All that was fulfilled in Christ. And when we see our sinfullness and truly repent and believe upon Christ, that which Christ accomplished through his life and death are imputed to us. It's not a gospel of doing the right things to gain God's favor. It's God saving us out of sin and death when we can't do the right things. But Christ did for us. And that's what makes the good news truly GOOD NEWS!

Yes and No,

First, the Sabbath and Holy Feasts of God are Gods not yours, you can not abolish them, he did not abolish them. He paid the price of the Passover, so that we can live with out leaven (sin) in the days of un-leaven bread (7 means complete everlasting).

This is part of the feasts of the first harvest, or first fruits of God.

Gods most spectacular celebration(the Sabbath) is only fulfill in the time of rest, at the end[ie. 1000 years of christ].

Gods other feasts, the fall feasts, the larger harvest. Is yet to be fulfilled by our redeemer Emmanuel (Jesus Christ). What is the next feast in Gods magnificent plan?

The feast of trumpets (this wonderful day was just celebrated yesterday)

Revelation 11:15:
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Revelation 8:2:
And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:6

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

[rwc109]

rwc109,

What you're saying about time zones and absolute time is completely scripturally unfounded. The Bible teaches nothing of the sort. All the OT holy days and feasts can find their fulfillment in Christ. Using the sabbath as an example:

Matt 12:8, "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
In the same context, concerning the sabbath He says, "I desire compassion, and not sacrifice."
Mark 2:27, "Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Heb 4:1-16 I am not going to quote the entire thing, but this passage teaches that Christ has entered into the rest that was not attained in the Old Covenant period, and has rested from his works. And we are to be dilligent to enter into that rest.

The New Covenant is not a covenant of sabbaths and holy days. All that was fulfilled in Christ. And when we see our sinfullness and truly repent and believe upon Christ, that which Christ accomplished through his life and death are imputed to us. It's not a gospel of doing the right things to gain God's favor. It's God saving us out of sin and death when we can't do the right things. But Christ did for us. And that's what makes the good news truly GOOD NEWS!

What you are overlooking is that the international time system that is in common use [local time] was only DEFINED about 400 years ago [and depends COMPLETELY on a dateline that has CHANGED REPEATEDLY since then]

thus local time just DIDN'T EXIST in the OT times when the Holy days of God were defined, thus one CANNOT use local time for holy days, they must then be kept by absolute time!

And Jesus showed us which absolute time to keep by keeping sabbath in and around the Holy Land where time was defined by the Temple in Jeruslaem...

Thus despite wgat you have said we do KNOW FROM SCRIPTURE that ALL holy days of God are kept by Jerusalem Absolute time and that they CANNOT be kept by local time because it is DIFFERENT ...

Hebrew days from sunset Jerusalem to the next are NOT EVEN 24 hours [in the sense that we use the term hours] although the ancient days were divided into units called 'hours' that were not the same length of time from day to day.

because of the rotation of the earth, SUNSET can ONLY be used to specify aTIME if one also states at what location the sunset is, thus we find that the bible uses Jerusalem sunset as its standard for start of Hebrew days, including ALL the Holy days o God...

God did not have to give the OT Hebrew tribes any details on knowing how to determine Jerusalem sunset time because the errors that they made in using local sunset were lESS than plus or minus on hour and that is as accuately as anyone measured time at that period in history

Gut coming up to the time of christ He provided scientists with the inspiration to work out times of sunset Jerusalem for any point on the earth and also public sundilas to determine the time of sunset Jerusalem from... thus as the Roman Empire spread well in front of the gospel, the means to keep Holy days was available to those who [optionally] chose to receive the blessing of the holy spirit on these days

The holy sabbath was indeed made for man as a blessing to those very few that keep it, God made it an [unconditional] blessing right from the beginning...

The fact that Israel agreed to keep it is totally irrelevant to anyone outside Israel, as too then is the waxing old of the old covenant !

But Jesus confirmed that it was made for us even though the sons of men were not made to keep it [only the sons of God who NEED the blessing to be anle to resist the antichrsit]

I do not understand how you manage to overlook that our saviour confirmed that the sabbath [not Sunday or Saturday or ANY Roman day] was MADE for us as a blessing forever [in Genesis]

These scriptures show the MASSIVELY important relevance in the future too, and not just to Israel either ! :-

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

 

[rwc109]

I disagree with time zone haters, because the way I look at it the sun hits every part of the world at a different time, and the first day ended at different times in different places. I do understand and respect his point; he is being in my opinion being obsessive compulsive in believing that Jerusalem is Gods beacon of time. However nothing wrong with being a little obsessive over such important issues.
Nor do I agree with his argument that non-Sabbath worship is a mark of the beast.

knee-v,
You are quite wrong on the matter of either the Sabbath or the holy day set.

Allow me to explain:

First the only holy days fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Jesus was the Passover and days of unleavened bread.


Note,
That the next holy day is Pentecost, which was also fulfilled, but not in Christ’s death, but in the giving of the spirit unto his people.

The fall harvest feasts are all yet unfulfilled as well as the Sabbath day

The holy days are the Fathers, the sons and the spirits, kept since the beginning till now:


or Jesus


Thing people often bring up:

Why was The Sabbath was made for man? I tell you as with every feast it is a great step of Gods plan for all of mankind .

Yes and No,

First, the Sabbath and Holy Feasts of God are Gods not yours, you can not abolish them, he did not abolish them. He paid the price of the Passover, so that we can live with out leaven (sin) in the days of un-leaven bread (7 means complete everlasting).

This is part of the feasts of the first harvest, or first fruits of God.

Gods most spectacular celebration(the Sabbath) is only fulfill in the time of rest, at the end[ie. 1000 years of christ].

Gods other feasts, the fall feasts, the larger harvest. Is yet to be fulfilled by our redeemer Emmanuel (Jesus Christ). What is the next feast in Gods magnificent plan?

The feast of trumpets (this wonderful day was just celebrated yesterday)

[/font]

I would like to point out that I love the chaos caused by tme-zones, I don't hate them at all, this misunderstnding is an integaral part of the strong delusion sent by god onto mankind in order to snare Satan [the Mystery of iniquity of 2 Thessalonians 2]

Christ would never have ben able to be returning without the abomination before God of using timezone time.

So I am far from being a hater of time-zones, they are absolutely essential to the plan of God! I thus love them!

You are in serious error though, all Hebrew days begin and end at sunset at the site of Jerusalem, not at local sunset

the reason is that if one keeps days by loacl sunset then anyone who circumnavigated the globe would end up keeping the wrong day!

God really never did define any dateline [and bizarrely there are different datelines used by humans and they have all changed in time!!]

Thus we see that God's timekeeping could only have been absolute and so still is absolute.

Local suset can oNLY be used to specify tim on the earth if one specifies a LOCATION for it, otherwise it is not well-defined , sunset is an event, not a time, to turn the evnt into a corresponding time one simply HAS to specify alocation... Jesus 'keeping of sabbeth in ThHoly land confirmed the timekeeping used by the Jews FROM TH TEMPLR IN JERUSALEM was the correct one, thus God's time is Jerusalem absolute time. [from scripture]