"time Past" And "now"

[Danoh]

Enjoy The Bible Ministries Time Past & Now

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

Enjoy The Bible Ministries Time Past & Now

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Enjoyed the "Times Past & Now" article. It was well presented.

It is my firm belief that the dispensation of Grace began with Paul, at his conversion in Acts 9, and at that time the Law was still in effect.

We know that prior to Acts 10 (at least 7 years after Pentecost) the Gentiles were still considered "common and unclean", and that it was against the Law for one that was a Jew to associate with them. Therefore, I fail to see where the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, could have started in Acts 2.

When, in Acts 10, God gave Peter the vision of unclean things, and told him to eat, Peter declined saying "...Not so Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean" (vs.14). Peter was still observing the dietary Laws.

God sent Peter to Cornelius and told him that he should never consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. vs. 28).

God's instructions there did not bring the Gentiles up to the level of God's special/favorite people, but put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

From these two believing "set aside" peoples God formed the "one new man", the Body of Christ, as Paul states in Eph. 2:15.

I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, in Acts 2.

 

[Danoh]

Towards that, a question worthy of study is did those Apostles and their flock prior to those Apostles beginning with and after Paul's Apostleship remain under the Law, and why, or why not?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

[QUOTE-BigD]It is my firm belief that the dispensation of Grace began with Paul, at his conversion in Acts 9, and at that time the Law was still in effect.

We know that prior to Acts 10 (at least 7 years after Pentecost) the Gentiles were still considered "common and unclean", and that it was against the Law for one that was a Jew to associate with them. Therefore, I fail to see where the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, could have started in Acts 2.

When, in Acts 10, God gave Peter the vision of unclean things, and told him to eat, Peter declined saying "...Not so Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean" (vs.14). Peter was still observing the dietary Laws.

God sent Peter to Cornelius and told him that he should never consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. vs. 28).

God's instructions there did not bring the Gentiles up to the level of God's special/favorite people, but put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

From these two believing "set aside" peoples God formed the "one new man", the Body of Christ, as Paul states in Eph. 2:15.

I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, in Acts 2.[/QUOTE]

Towards that, a question worthy of study is did those Apostles and their flock prior to those Apostles beginning with and after Paul's Apostleship remain under the Law, and why, or why not?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

From your phraseology I am not quite sure of exactly what you mean. I am assuming you are referring to those saved prior to Paul's conversion.

Let me answer that by going to the letter to the Hebrews.

It is my belief that the book to the Hebrews is to those Jews that became believers in Jesus Christ under the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

Prior to their salvation, these Jews were zealous of the Law, and just went through the motion of practicing the deed's works of the Law. They did not believe that Jesus was who He said He was. The just practiced their religion.

After they became believers under the preaching of the Gospel of the Grace of God, they still practiced the Law works.

The author of the letter to the Hebrews (majority view is that it was Paul) is correcting them. He is explaining to them that those things they were still practicing were shadows and types of what Christ fulfilled, and they were no longer necessary. Things under Grace were much better then the things required under the Law.

Had this letter been written to Gentile believers, they would not have had a clue as to what the author was saying.

However, there are things in that letter that are applicable to those in the Church, the Body of Christ.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[Dispy]

I would like to add to the above to further clarify my position.

We know from Gal. 2, the Council at Jerusalem, that Paul explained to James and John the gospel that he preached, i.e. the gospel of the Grace of God, and the disciples of Jesus were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom. They stayed with those that were saved and persecuted under that message, and still looking for an earthly kingdom. The 12 disciples of Jesus were promised 12 thrones in that kingdom.

Acts 15 is Luke's account of that meeting, and after that meeting I do believe that the disciples saw that the "so called" great commission could not be carried out, and James, Peter and John agreed with Paul and Barnabas they would stay with the circumcision, that they should go to the heathen (Gentiles) (cf. Gal. 2:9).

 

[Danoh]

You see the Mystery in Hebrews, Despy: where?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

You see the Mystery in Hebrews, Despy: where?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

The one that the author is writing to were saved under the preaching of the gospel of the Grace of God (the mystery) but because they were brought up under the Law, are still practicing Law works.

In Hebrews 6:1-2 the author is telling them that what they did under the Law were shadows and types of what Jesus did for them, and they are no longer needed. Jesus performed the Law works for them. That Grace is better then Law.

 

[Danoh]

It seems to me you are confusing Israel's Prophesied Grace under the Law (the New Covenant Prophesied to one day enable them to keep the Law) for those of that nation who keep the righteousness of the Law BY faith"

The Grace of the Mystery is Grace "THROUGH faith" and was kept a Mystery.

The Grace of Hebrews is not only conditional, but was prophesied as His Covenant with that nation one day, when He will enable those of that nation who had walked "by faith" in His "law for righteousness" the ability to keep said Law perfectly.

Hebrews is the if/then condition of Exodus 19. Its why it repeatedly warns them against repeating the failure to keep its conditions their forefathers had. It's why it reads much like Peter's "royal priesthood."

Hebrews is NOT Mystery ground, Hebrews two. Still, I look forward to what you have to share on this.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[notreligus]

Enjoyed the "Times Past & Now" article. It was well presented.

It is my firm belief that the dispensation of Grace began with Paul, at his conversion in Acts 9, and at that time the Law was still in effect.

We know that prior to Acts 10 (at least 7 years after Pentecost) the Gentiles were still considered "common and unclean", and that it was against the Law for one that was a Jew to associate with them. Therefore, I fail to see where the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, could have started in Acts 2.

When, in Acts 10, God gave Peter the vision of unclean things, and told him to eat, Peter declined saying "...Not so Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean" (vs.14). Peter was still observing the dietary Laws.

God sent Peter to Cornelius and told him that he should never consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. vs. 28).

God's instructions there did not bring the Gentiles up to the level of God's special/favorite people, but put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

From these two believing "set aside" peoples God formed the "one new man", the Body of Christ, as Paul states in Eph. 2:15.

I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, in Acts 2.

Look for the Holy Spirit and don't focus on the physical things.

The Holy Spirit came and He empowered the Church. The Holy Spirit was no longer behind the veil but had come to all believers. If you'll stop looking at this through Dispensational eyes you'll be able to see. There is no difference in Jew and Gentile in Christ. Not on Pentecost, not now, and not in the future. The demands of the Law were nailed to the cross. Why would anyone boast about having to follow 613 commandments? Why would anyone think that God would make that obsolete in Christ only to bring it back again in the future?

Also, the Book of Acts is history. It is not church doctrine. Yes, we learn from history, or we should. We should learn that Law puts people under bondage. The Jews fought the transition from the Law. It was their security blanket. There is freedom in Christ. Through Christ God did what people could never do for themselves and what the Law cannot accomplish. We should move on past the elementary things (the Law being like kindergarten).

 

[Dispy]

Enjoyed the "Times Past & Now" article. It was well presented.

It is my firm belief that the dispensation of Grace began with Paul, at his conversion in Acts 9, and at that time the Law was still in effect.

We know that prior to Acts 10 (at least 7 years after Pentecost) the Gentiles were still considered "common and unclean", and that it was against the Law for one that was a Jew to associate with them. Therefore, I fail to see where the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, could have started in Acts 2.

When, in Acts 10, God gave Peter the vision of unclean things, and told him to eat, Peter declined saying "...Not so Lord, for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean" (vs.14). Peter was still observing the dietary Laws.

God sent Peter to Cornelius and told him that he should never consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. vs. 28).

God's instructions there did not bring the Gentiles up to the level of God's special/favorite people, but put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

From these two believing "set aside" peoples God formed the "one new man", the Body of Christ, as Paul states in Eph. 2:15.

I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, in Acts 2.

Look for the Holy Spirit and don't focus on the physical things.

The Holy Spirit came and He empowered the Church. The Holy Spirit was no longer behind the veil but had come to all believers. If you'll stop looking at this through Dispensational eyes you'll be able to see. There is no difference in Jew and Gentile in Christ. Not on Pentecost, not now, and not in the future. The demands of the Law were nailed to the cross. Why would anyone boast about having to follow 613 commandments? Why would anyone think that God would make that obsolete in Christ only to bring it back again in the future?

Also, the Book of Acts is history. It is not church doctrine. Yes, we learn from history, or we should. We should learn that Law puts people under bondage. The Jews fought the transition from the Law. It was their security blanket. There is freedom in Christ. Through Christ God did what people could never do for themselves and what the Law cannot accomplish. We should move on past the elementary things (the Law being like kindergarten).

I have to agree with you that in this present dispensation of Grace, there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile. However, prior to the conversion of Saul/Paul there was still "a middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. That middle wall of partition was not broken down until God gave Peter the vision in Acts 10. Acts 10 is at least 7 years after Pentecost. There were only Jews and proselytes at Pentecost (Acts 2:8-10)

In Acts 11 when Peter went up to Jerusalem they of the circumcision contended with him saying, Thou wentest in to uncircumcised, and didst eat with them (cf. vss 1-3).

If you will show me the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, at Pentecost, I will believe every word you write even if you are quoting from satan's book of lies.

That is as easy as I can make it for you.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[Dispy]

It seems to me you are confusing Israel's Prophesied Grace under the Law (the New Covenant Prophesied to one day enable them to keep the Law) for those of that nation who keep the righteousness of the Law BY faith"

The Grace of the Mystery is Grace "THROUGH faith" and was kept a Mystery.

The Grace of Hebrews is not only conditional, but was prophesied as His Covenant with that nation one day, when He will enable those of that nation who had walked "by faith" in His "law for righteousness" the ability to keep said Law perfectly.

Hebrews is the if/then condition of Exodus 19. Its why it repeatedly warns them against repeating the failure to keep its conditions their forefathers had. It's why it reads much like Peter's "royal priesthood."

Hebrews is NOT Mystery ground, Hebrews two. Still, I look forward to what you have to share on this.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

In my response I was not referring to national Israel. I was referring to those Jews that heard the message of Grace and believed. Those are the ones that the letter was written to. The letter was necessary because they were still practicing the works required under the Law.