"Thy Will Be Done" and other questions about praying

TheBear said:

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?

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Prayer affects the prayer.

As the saying goes:

The family that prays together, stays together.

TheBear said:

Please explain that in detail. Thanks.

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Prayer is communication between a believer and God.

Setting up lines of communication is one of the first things you do when you undertake any major endeavor.

Be it going to war, running a corporation, or whatever.

Prayer is a form of intimate worship with God.

So whether we pray from our prayer closet, or open a service in prayer, it links us verbally with our Creator.

Using Hollywood as an example ... eek ..., did you ever watch the movie, It's a Wonderful Life?

The shows starts off with everyone praying for George Bailey.

And in one of the Superman shows, Superman is listening in and hearing the cries of help coming from below.

And that motivates him to action.

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?


*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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Prayer subsumes ourselves, both as individuals and corporately when we pray together as the Church, under the will of God. I do not pray to influence or bend the world to my will, that would be magick. I pray that I might humble myself before God and accept His will, whatever it may be. So whether in sickness or health, life or death, good or ill, may God's will be done. As we see in the archetypal Christian prayer, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven,"

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for the question. We will do our best to answer it.

TheBear said:

*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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This is not the way that Christians operate. Christianity, although it has certainly become infected by post-modern culture, is not individualistic, relativistic and subjective. We have a "library" of documents that function as our only rule for faith and practice (the Holy Bible). A Christian will answer your question from its pages, or from experience that is inline with its teaching. Prayer is defined by God, not man.

TheBear said:

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?

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Prayer is about asking God for things. Asking God for things, even as mundane as our "daily bread", helps us to remember that we are dependent on Him. We are the creatures, and He is the creator. Children must ask for all kinds of things because either they are not capable of supplying the things that they need for themselves, or because they not capable of even knowing what's best for themselves. The latter is at least one reason that we pray, "your will be done". Like children we might ask for something that isn't good for us. We might pray for more money, but more money might lead to our ruin. . . We know that God has a better vantage point in which to see and fill our real needs. He gives us what's best for us, regardless of what we ask for. That's a comfort to know.

This might also get at your question from a different angle: Some have asked, "if God is sovereign why pray?" I respond with this question: If God isn't sovereign why pray? Meaning that if He isn't in control, then what good is it to ask Him from anything?

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?

*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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There are many.
For me, the most important one is to practice on how to talk to God. It is not as easy as you think.

Do you work in a company or an institution? Do you know how to talk to your highest rank boss? How many times do you need to practice in order to communicate with him/her in a natural and effective way?

juvenissun said:

Do you work in a company or an institution? Do you know how to talk to your highest rank boss?

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Errr....
I'm my own boss these days, but back when I was an employee, I spoke to my boss in the exact same way as I spoke to any of my collegues. With respect and as equal human beings.

Now that I'm "the boss", I don't expect my employees to treat me any differently then the other people working here.

I require smart, strong workers, not sheep with minority complexes.

How many times do you need to practice in order to communicate with him/her in a natural and effective way?

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Zero times. I just stay my natural self.

DogmaHunter said:

Errr....
I'm my own boss these days, but back when I was an employee, I spoke to my boss in the exact same way as I spoke to any of my collegues. With respect and as equal human beings.

Now that I'm "the boss", I don't expect my employees to treat me any differently then the other people working here.

I require smart, strong workers, not sheep with minority complexes.

Zero times. I just stay my natural self.

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If so, imaging that if you talked to the prime minister or even to the president of your nation. Do you know how to communicate with them if you were only given one chance? What would make you talk to them efficiently?

Remind you that the issue here is about praying, which means: talk to God.

juvenissun said:

If so, imaging that if you talked to the prime minister or even to the president of your nation. Do you know how to communicate with them if you were only given one chance? What would make you talk to them efficiently?

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Again, I would talk to them in the exact same way as I talk to any other adult.
I'm not the kind to bow down to people just because they have more money or have a certain job or whatever.

Remind you that the issue here is about praying, which means: talk to God.

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Remind you that I was responding to your comment about talking to your boss.
Also remind you that "praying", in my world, is understood as "talking to yourself".

DogmaHunter said:

Again, I would talk to them in the exact same way as I talk to any other adult.
I'm not the kind to bow down to people just because they have more money or have a certain job or whatever.

Remind you that I was responding to your comment about talking to your boss.
Also remind you that "praying", in my world, is understood as "talking to yourself".

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You do not need to remind me. You are not discussing the question in the OP.

TheBear said:

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?

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Unfortunately your question is quite vague. I will just assume that you are talking about petitionary prayer, and that this is your question:

What is the purpose of a Christian's life? To become one with God, abiding with him forever. A substantial part of this union is union of will, and the believer's will must be conformed to the divine will, not the other way around. Prayer, like everything else that a Christian does, is subordinated as a means to this end. So the primary purpose of prayer is not "To get things I want." Therefore whenever a Christian asks for something from God, they ought to do it with a view to their ultimate goal: union with God. Asking for something that is contrary to God's will would be nonsensical, for it would undermine the whole point of prayer. It would be like an Olympic athlete asking his trainer for something inimical to his goal of Olympic excellence.

zippy2006 said:

Unfortunately your question is quite vague. I will just assume that you are talking about petitionary prayer, and that this is your question:

Why ask God for anything if you always have to add the suffix, "...yet not my will, but Thine be done"?
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What is the purpose of a Christian's life? To become one with God, abiding with him forever. A substantial part of this union is union of will, and the believer's will must be conformed to the divine will, not the other way around. Prayer, like everything else that a Christian does, is subordinated as a means to this end. So the primary purpose of prayer is not "To get things I want." Therefore whenever a Christian asks for something from God, they ought to do it with a view to their ultimate goal: union with God. Asking for something that is contrary to God's will would be nonsensical, for it would undermine the whole point of prayer. It would be like an Olympic athlete asking his trainer for something inimical to his goal of Olympic excellence.

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Well said, Zippy.

The desire for complete autonomy is what led Adam to sin. Learning to subjugate our desires, which are not always in our best interest, for God's desires, which are always in our best interest, is part of what prayer is.

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?


*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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The purpose of prayer is communion with God, so that the cares of this world do not overwhelm us mentally as well as physically. As Your will be done indicates that we are to understand nothing of the world can affect us unless we let it, that we pray for His help in overcoming the problems living in this world controlled by Satan that may be inflicted upon us.

Without that armor we are naked to the attacks from the spiritual realm and would soon be overcome. Blown about by the winds like a falling leaf that has no source of grounding. It is not for God's sake that we pray - but for our own (and others).

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?

*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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I personally believe that you are referring to the Calvinist viewpoint... In which... I am not a calvinist...

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? - Luke 18

The widow...

Kept coming back...
Kept coming back...
Kept coming back...
Kept coming back...
Kept coming back!

And she changed the mind of the judge! I personally believe that we can change the mind of God if take things up with him in an appropriate manner...

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?


*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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One of the purposes is that it's a way of communication. It is the way how Christians communicate with God.

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?


*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

Click to expand...

The main purpose of prayer is not "getting what you want from God".

Prayer is communication with God. It opens our hearts to Him, and can allow us to experience Him. If we are able to eventually learn to be continually in remembrance of God, and experience Him as a continual Presence, we will have accomplished the apostolic admonition to "pray without ceasing".

Prayer changes us.

And with maturity, we come to realize that "what we want" might not be what is best for us. We learn that God always has the best good in mind, and that He alone is wise enough to know the future, the inside of men's hearts and minds, and know what that best good is, and how to accomplish it. He alone has the power to bring it to pass. Our place, when we are able to grow into it, is to trust Him in this.

Remember Christ's own prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane - "if possible, let this cup pass from me" (that He could avoid the events of the crucifixion that were about to come to pass) AND YET He also prayed "not My will [His human desire] but Thy will [the Divine purpose/will] be done." In the end, for all, this was best, and according to God's plan. That is the ultimate example of this concept.

Even if what happens here is difficult for us as humans, if we consider the truth that in the light of eternity, this present life will seem like a puff of smoke, we can appreciate God's desire for our being united with Him in eternity, rather than turning from Him in our torment.

Reading some of the formal prayers of the Church might help illustrate these points. If you search for "Morning Prayers", "Prayer of the Hours", or "Evening Prayers" online, that should turn up sources.

Seeing how prayer may be done helps to make some of this clear. There is nothing wrong with extemporaneous prayers (and we should all pray "our own" prayers) but seeing how the Church has traditionally taught prayer can really illustrate some of the answers to your questions.

TheBear said:

I'll start off with this question and ask follow-up questions as the thread develops.*

What is the purpose of prayer, if at the end of the day it all boils down to the acceptance of God's will being done, whatever it may be?


*(I'd like responses in the form of individuals' beliefs, not groupthink "we" type answers. What do you personally believe? Thanks.)

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This is a great question. Also, in reading your thread, I think you are being honest in the request. Thank you for your simple honesty.

I disagree with both my Calvinist and Pentecostal brothers. Not everything is God's will, nor do we pray to change God's mind. The unjust judge in the Lord's story is Satan, not God, and it is used as a contrast to show how willing God is to answer our prayers.

There have been others in the thread who have made great comments. Salvation is for us to be one with God, but to still retain our individuality. Prayer is the natural communication between man and God just as conversation is between a husband and wife. Conversation is not about petitions but the sharing of hearts.

As we deepen the sharing of hearts with one another (man and God) we come to realize the wisdom, justice and love of all of God's will and accept it because it is best. But as I said, everything is not God's will, and prayer is one means of discovering what is or is not. Our will can be contrary to what is right, along with the will of other men against us and Satan against us. Natural forces are not God's will in the sense that God sends storms to destroy things, such as hurricane Katrina. Natural forces are God's will only in that He set up the system of natural forces.

There is much that is God's will that we don't have to petition him, but rather we thank Him for. The prayer model that Jesus gave to his disciples is not a New Testament prayer, but an Old Testament prayer. When Jesus incarnated, his kingdom came and His will was done on the cross. He knows our needs before we have needs, so we thank Him for our daily bread. The cross brought reconciliation between God and man, now we forgive others in the ministry of reconciliation. So, frankly, it is a model of gratitude not petition for the New Testament believers.

Since you are an atheist, as a technical distinction I tell you, the New Testament begins after His resurrection. The life of Christ ended the Old Testament dispensation, and Jesus was the last Old Testament prophet. Jesus fulfilled the law and lived under the law. The disciples and apostles also lived under the law until the resurrection. The teachings of Christ were to reveal the spirit behind the law which would be satisfied with the death and resurrection of Christ.