Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

trophy33 · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
No the greatest commandments did not end, which is a summary of the Ten how to love God and love neighbor.

This is not biblical. The greatest/most important commandments are not a summary of the ten. The ten commandments were not even in the context of the question.

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Mk 12:29-34

Gary K · Jun 29, 2023

myst33 said:
Post at least one instruction given after the cross to Gentiles or to Christians to keep the Sabbath day. Certainly, if important, it would be mentioned many times.

If you cant, then there is not much to talk about. Just trying to dismiss verses saying we do not have to observe days is not enough, if you do not have any verse saying the opposite.

Actually just the opposite is true. If Jesus and the apostles had not kept the Sabbath the outrage from the "judaizers would have been all over the new testament.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Gary K · Jun 29, 2023

myst33 said:
This is not biblical. The greatest/most important commandments are not a summary of the ten. The ten commandments were not even in the context of the question.

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Mk 12:29-34

Huh. So we demonstrate our love for God by disobeying Him? Odd way to demonstrate love. If you're married do you demonstrate your love for your wife by ignoring what she asks you to do? Secondly, you ignore the fact that Jesus was speaking to a highly educated Jew to whom the Sabbath was a really big deal. He was probably a Pharisee too as he was participating in a trap to catch Jesus advocating breaking the law of God.

Gary K · Jun 29, 2023

Valletta said:
The texts that comprise the Bible were mostly if not all written by the end of the first century. The canon of the Bible was established forever by the Catholic Church in the late 300s.

What does that have to do with anything? If Luther's, Tyndale's, or Erasmus' Bible translations were fully RCC approved why did the RCC church declare it a crime worthy of death to own or read them?

Servus · Jun 29, 2023

myst33 said:
The only NT text you used is Mk 2:27 and this one actually means the opposite you think it means. It means that Jesus is above Sabbath, not subdued to it.

Some seem to put the Sabbath above Jesus.

Servus · Jun 29, 2023

myst33 said:
The context is quite clear. You think that Col 2:14 blotted out everything except of the ten, because those were written by finger, not by hand (you like this division for some reason). Which does not work.

Ellen White emphasized the finger of God a lot.

The Ark of the Covenant, Will It Be Found?

m.egwwritings.org

Servus · Jun 29, 2023

Gary K said:
Actually just the opposite is true. If Jesus and the apostles had not kept the Sabbath the outrage from the "judaizers would have been all over the new testament.

Judaizers could quite possibly be why Paul wrote Colossians 2:16. Fact is that the Jews did say Jesus and his apostles did not keep the sabbath Matthew 12:2, Mark 2:24, John 5:18

Servus · Jun 29, 2023

Gary K said:
Huh. So we demonstrate our love for God by disobeying Him? Odd way to demonstrate love. If you're married do you demonstrate your love for your wife by ignoring what she asks you to do? Secondly, you ignore the fact that Jesus was speaking to a highly educated Jew to whom the Sabbath was a really big deal. He was probably a Pharisee too as he was participating in a trap to catch Jesus advocating breaking the law of God.

Do you wear tassels? If not you are disobeying God. “You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself." Deuteronomy 22:12.

I once asked a Messianic Christian "do make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself? And HARK! said: Of course! Like I said, I fulfill the Torah. I belong to YHWH.

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Who said the New Month would end? It does not say new moon festivals, which is different.

Why are we going once a month to worship in Jerusalem?

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
What issues?

Isaiah 66:22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Hard to make the Sabbath end at the cross if it will be celebrated in heaven coming before the Lord from one Sabbath to another to worship Him, like we should do now on the day the Lord set aside for holy use.

Are you referring to the New Moon? There was not a calendar in biblical times, so to keep track of times and the new month they did so through the moon. A New Moon just means new month. It's possible we will have a special gathering before the Lord every New Moon, or perhaps months will be an even 28 days and every New Moon will also be the Sabbath, hard to say, but regardless of what the Lord has in mind for, the Sabbath continues, and I hope to part of God's heavenly kingdom. Those who do not want to keep the Sabbath now, I wonder if they would want to in heaven, God does not force us against our will and His will is not different in heaven as it is on this earth- which is why the Sabbath is made for man Mark 2:27 and man celebrated the first Sabbath in the presence of God Genesis 2:1-3 and Sabbath worship will be back in the presence of God when sin and sinners will be no more- just God's eternal rest where there will be no more rebellion to God.

Leaf473 said:
Why is God choosing priests and Levites?

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:21 - New King James Version

And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

www.biblegateway.com

Any follow-up, SB?

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

The idea that God wrote the Ten commandments while Moses wrote all the rest of the law of Moses is talked about a lot when the subject of keeping only some of the law of Moses comes up.

An issue someone already presented earlier is that the first and second greatest Commandments are not part of the 10. Yes, they are related, but they go way beyond what the ten say.

If some things that God spoke to Moses that Moses later wrote down are in effect today, then God written versus Moses written is not a useful method of dividing up the law of Moses.

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 8:1 - New King James Version

The Excellence of Wisdom - Does not wisdom cry out, And understanding lift up her voice?

www.biblegateway.com

Edit: English

Servus · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Suit yourself the context is there, how can the Sabbath commandment end at the cross if it shows it didn't. Because commandments are not ordinances, handwritten is not finger-written and holy and blessed is not the definition of cursed and contrary. Col 2:14 KJV But we have free will to choose any path we want. Guess we will need to leave it as agree to disagree and we will all find out soon enough, like I said I would not want to be wrong about this.

I'm just acknowledging what scripture clearly says, without trying to change it into saying something else. Since I keep the sabbath by choice, what Paul says in Col 2:16 has no effect on that. But if I had dedicated myself to a Christian denomonation that is all about Christians mandatorily keeping the the old covenant sabbath law God gave to the Jews, then I'd most certainly have a problem with Col 2:16.

SabbathBlessings said:
If days don't matter, then no harm in keeping the Sabbath and spending holy time with God over another day that was deemed for works and labors, but if commandments of God are meant to be kept as told so in scripture, well we all will find out on Judgement Day, but by then our fates will be sealed. Rev 22:11

If this assessment is correct, it means Jesus was wrong and the gates of hell did overcome His church in the first century. It must be heartbreaking to have to believe that 99.9% of Christians for the last 2000 years will not enter the kingdom of heaven. To have to believe that Satan overcame the church that Christ built for two thousand years, except for the small remnant the prophet Ellen White started gathering one thousand eight hundred and sixty years later.

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

HIM said:
Romans 10:6-8 paraphrases Deut 30:10-14 which is actually the first time the New Covenant was given in respect to the Law, the word, being put in the heart of the believer that we do it. Deut 29:1. There is your proof.

Leaf473 said:
Please do a demonstration of how you separate laws into commandments, statutes, judgments, and ordinances

Or a different approach: how about taking this instruction and saying whether it is a commandment, statute, judgment, or ordinance? (Anyone who believes they can reasonably divide up the law of Moses is welcome to participate )

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 15:1 - New American Standard Bible

The Sabbatical Year - “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release of debts.

www.biblegateway.com

SabbathBlessings · Jun 29, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Any follow-up, SB?

1 Peter 2:9

Gary K · Jun 29, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
Judaizers could quite possibly be why Paul wrote Colossians 2:16. Fact is that the Jews did say Jesus and his apostles did not keep the sabbath Matthew 12:2, Mark 2:24, John 5:18

So you take your theology from His avowed enemies and think He was a sinner? If that is true Peter being hung upside or Paul bring beheaded can save you from your sins. What need was there for Jesus to die on the cross if a sinner can save us?

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
1 Peter 2:9

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 2:9 - New King James Version

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

www.biblegateway.com

Does that apply to all Christians? Doesn't it sound like all Christians are priests?

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:21 - New King James Version

And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

www.biblegateway.com

Why take only some of them for priests and Levites?

Valletta · Jun 29, 2023

Gary K said:
1. The Bible is not a "new belief of men". It is the word of God.

2. Whenever the threat of persecution to himself arose Erasmus would back away from his beliefs. That is not brave behavior.

Luther is not the "word of God." As to what Erasmus did, you were there? How in the world do you judge someone from so many centuries ago as a coward? The truth is that you don't know whether he was braver than you or I.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 29, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 2:9 - New King James Version

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

www.biblegateway.com

Does that apply to all Christians? Doesn't it sound like all Christians are priests?

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:21 - New King James Version

And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

www.biblegateway.com

Why take only some of them for priests and Levites?

Those in Christ which will be brought up to His holy mountain.

Leaf473 · Jun 29, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Those in Christ which will be brought up to His holy mountain.

Amen! Did you want to comment on why God is selecting priests and Levites?

Gary K · Jun 29, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
Do you wear tassels? If not you are disobeying God. “You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself." Deuteronomy 22:12.

I once asked a Messianic Christian "do make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself? And HARK! said: Of course! Like I said, I fulfill the Torah. I belong to YHWH.

So, if I do not comply with the ceremonial laws which pointed forward to the Messiah I am a sinner? Now the command to wear tassels which were to keep the Israelites reminded of God and were not specifically part of the ceremonial law.

Are you aware that the entire book of Deuteronomy was kept in a pocket on the side of the ark of the covenant not under the mercy seat with the eternal law of God?

Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice that the ark of the covenant was called that because it held the covenant God made with the Israelites.

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

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