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Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

Pavel Mosko

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I got my own Apologetics for this that I think is quite good covering early types in Judaism (8th day feast, offerings and rituals, as well as Pentecost) , that are present in Christianity and the fact we know the Church worshipped on Sunday and it's meaning in light of the Resurrection. Pentecost, and when saint John the Divine received his Revelation for the book of Revelation all of which happened on Sunday. As well as the fact that Sunday was instrumental in proclaiming the Faith in early times. The Church just did not preach the Resurrection, but making Sunday the primary day for worship was another way of emphasizing and preaching and bearing witness to that truth that is the most important truth for humanity (The Gospel that is the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus and what it means for us).

As well as other issues that I probably will include later.


This morning I listened to Thunder Lauriston give a very good presentation that hit other things, or made other points I wouldn't make and I really enjoyed it. So I intend to relisten and take notes on it and post them.


Cheers and have a happy sabbath.

 
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BobRyan

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I will be taking notes from an evangelist that I have become very fond of the last few months, E. J. thunder Lauriston. He gives a long presentation that I will take notes on and post in the comments page. The video description says "This presentation takes a systematic and contextual look at what Scripture teaches about the Sabbath in both the Old Testament and the New." I'm guessing I will start tomorrow morning or maybe this evening depending on my mood and other stuff going on around me.


It is pretty hard to have a discussion "with a video"
 
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Pavel Mosko

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It is pretty hard to have a discussion "with a video"
Not a problem because I will be taking notes and posting them in the entries. Although I think I may switch videos and cover the previous video I listened to this morning where he covers Sunday worship and how it can't be "the mark of the Beast".
 
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SabbathBlessings

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According to the holy scriptures the mark of the beast is about worship.....

Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Revelation 14 :6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The mark of the beast has not come yet, but as we can see from scriptures, it is about worship. Right in this prophecy it gives us the antidote for not receiving the mark of the beast....

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God and God set aside the seventh day- sanctified it and blessed it for holy use to spend time with us. Why people resist this so much is beyond me, but we know who does not want us spending time with God on His holy Sabbath day Revelation 12:17 KJV

Jesus warns us not to worship in vain by obeying man rules over the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten Matthew 15:3-9

We are being called out of Babylon our false teachings that were handed down to us.......God has people in all churches, but wants us to come out of these false teaching and warns us if we don't...

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

As we must worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4: 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

All of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 including the Sabbath commandment that has to do with our time that God wants, so He can know us and we can know Him. 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
 
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BobRyan

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Not a problem because I will be taking notes and posting them in the entries. Although I think I may switch videos and cover the previous video I listened to this morning where he covers Sunday worship and how it can't be "the mark of the Beast".
Choose any source for research you wish - but the discussion on this thread can only happen when you personally respond to the points raised.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Opening Statement for Thunder Lauriston

Sunday Worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast

This is based on the notion in SDA theology that "Sunday worship is primarily sinful. It is the wrong day to worship God on. Sunday is pagan. It is the day that has been basically handed over to the Roman Catholic Church and Satan. It belongs to them and worshipping God on that day by proxy (one is inadvertently paying homage to Roman Catholicism or worshipping the Devil).


more to come from



 
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BNR32FAN

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Pavel Mosko

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Choose any source for research you wish - but the discussion on this thread can only happen when you personally respond to the points raised.

And I'm sure my Evangelist friend will cover them eventually and I will record them in real times as I watch and takes notes here and there.


As for myself, I believe the SDA fundamentally misunderstands church history. The only ancient group on record that comes close to have their kind of position in ancient times (Other than the Galatians Circumcision sect and other so called "Judaizer" groups advocating Kosher rules in Christianity), was a heretical group, that lived in Israel and the surrounding area as Bedouins, after the first Jewish-Roman war known as the Ebionites. A word in Aramaic that meant "poor ones", they were said to have been poor because they "suffered from a poverty of understanding, not knowing that the Mosaic law was not needed for salvation". So they were basically like orthodox Jews of the time before the temple was destroyed but believed in Jesus as a prophet and messiah for Israel to die for the nation's sins, but denied his divinity as well as his virgin birth, but believed he was sent by God to die for Israel.



But by and large I don't think you guys get the most basic aspects of the Gospel or what actually happened in ancient times. It is like the saying of "can't see the forest for the trees." You are so focused on the Sabbath, that you don't notice all the other stuff because you got tunnel vision and myopia. And I will add, I believe this orientation itself has more to do with personal needs like "Being the remnant." and wanting to be special than anything from scripture. That is especially true of the early SDA movement, especially after the Great Controversy. I really believe your Church is based more on Confirmation Bias than anything. There are so many scriptural reasons to reject so many of the White prophecies, doctrines and policies and practices, it is not even funny....
 
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BNR32FAN

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Opening Statement for Thunder Lauriston

Sunday Worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast

This is based on the notion in SDA theology that "Sunday worship is primarily sinful. It is the wrong day to worship God on. Sunday is pagan. It is the day that has been basically handed over to the Roman Catholic Church and Satan. It belongs to them and worshipping God on that day by proxy (one is inadvertently paying homage to Roman Catholicism or worshipping the Devil).


more to come from


Anyone who teaches that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and that Sabbath worship is required for salvation has slipped into the same problem the Galatians did by mixing requirements from the law with justification.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And I'm sure my Evangelist friend will cover them


As for myself, the SDA fundamentally misunderstands church history. The only group that comes close to have their kind of position in ancient times was a heretical group, that lived in Israel after the first Jewish war known as the Ebionites. A word in Aramaic that meant "poor ones", they were said to have been poor because they "suffered from a poverty of understanding, not knowing that the Mosaic law was not needed for salvation". So they were basically like orthodox Jews of the time before the temple was destroyed but believed in Jesus as a prophet and messiah, but denied his divinity as well as his virgin birth, but believed he was sent by God to die for Israel.



But by and large I don't think you guys get the most basic aspects of the Gospel or what actually happened in ancient times. It is like the saying of can't seeing the forrest for the trees. You are so focused on the Sabbath, that you don't notice all the other stuff. And I will add, I beieve this orientation itself has more to do with personal needs like "Being the remnant." and wanting to be special than anything from scripture. That is especially true of the early SDA movement, especially after the Great Controversy. I really believe your Church is based more on Confirmation Bias than anything. There are so many scriptural reasons to reject so many of the prophecies, doctrines and polices, it is not even funny....
One thing I’ve noticed is that the SDA often mention that the Sabbath commandment was one of the Ten Commandments and that’s why we must still observe it but they don’t only teach that we must observe the 10 commandments they also teach that we must observe the dietary laws as well. So it’s not just a matter of the 10 commandments they’re actually mixing other aspects of the mosaic law into justification as well.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Where did God command anyone to worship on the Sabbath?
In the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:8 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Is worshipping God on the day He set aside and sanctified for holy use so He could spend time with us not worthy of worship or a day God said to do works and labors Exodus 20:9

Worshipping God is shown not just through the Sabbath commandment, but by keeping all of His commandments.


John 4: 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

If there are true worshipers that means, there has to be false worshipers. Jesus alludes to this again in Matthew 7:21-23

Jesus shows us what false worship looks like....

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

In contrast to Revelation 14:12 which is the antidote instead of worshipping the beast Revelation 14
 
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SabbathBlessings

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One thing I’ve noticed is that the SDA often mention that the Sabbath commandment was one of the Ten Commandments and that’s why we must still observe it but they don’t only teach that we must observe the 10 commandments they also teach that we must observe the dietary laws as well. So it’s not just a matter of the 10 commandments they’re actually mixing other aspects of the mosaic law into justification as well.
Has our bodies changed from when God deemed which foods were clean versus unclean? Same bodies, same animals and it doesn't appear God changed His mind on the health laws. Isaiah 66:17
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Anyone who teaches that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and that Sabbath worship is required for salvation has slipped into the same problem the Galatians did by mixing requirements from the law with justification.
Law-keeping is not how one is saved. Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than worshipping other gods, or coveting. We are not saved by law-keeping we are saved by the blood of Jesus, through our faith. When Jesus changes us from the inside out we want to obey though love and faith. Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12 1 John 5:3 Keeping the law is a fruit of our faith not how one is saved.
 
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BobRyan

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And I'm sure my Evangelist friend will cover them eventually and I will record them in real times as I watch and takes notes here and there.


As for myself, I believe the SDA fundamentally misunderstands church history. The only ancient group on record that comes close to have their kind of position in ancient times (Other than the Galatians Circumcision sect and other so called "Judaizer" groups advocating Kosher rules in Christianity), was a heretical group, that lived in Israel and the surrounding area as Bedouins,

You appear to miss a great many facts in both the OT and NT text a well as apparently being new to history in some regards. in any case this should be fun.

But by and large I don't think you guys get the most basic aspects of the Gospel or what actually happened in ancient times. It is like the saying of "can't see the forest for the trees."
I had considered making a similar comment in regard to your posts that typically ignore the Bible texts posted in response to a very imaginative claim that you post.

in any case - I don't challenge your ability to make false accusations - I am looking for the point where you post an actual fact rather than a pile of accusations.

You are so focused on the Sabbath, that you don't notice all the other stuff

Sadly false
 
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BNR32FAN

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In the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:8 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Is worshipping God on the day He set aside and sanctified for holy use so He could spend time with us not worthy of worship or a day God said to do works and labors Exodus 20:9

Worshipping God is shown not just through the Sabbath commandment, but by keeping all of His commandments.


John 4: 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

If there are true worshipers that means, there has to be false worshipers. Jesus alludes to this again in Matthew 7:21-23

Jesus shows us what false worship looks like....

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

In contrast to Revelation 14:12 which is the antidote instead of worshipping the beast Revelation 14
So how is this requirement to worship on the Sabbath not a “doctrine of man”? God did not command anyone to worship on the Sabbath, He commanded them to rest. You only derive at the requirement to worship by human reasoning not by an explicit commandment from God. Your whole argument revolves around the church following traditions of man over the commandments of God but that’s exactly what you’re doing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Has our bodies changed from when God deemed which foods were clean versus unclean? Same bodies, same animals and it doesn't appear God changed His mind on the health laws. Isaiah 66:17
Had they changed since Adam or Noah because the dietary laws for Adam were different from Noah which was also different from the Mosiac dietary laws.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So how is this requirement to worship on the Sabbath not a “doctrine of man”? God did not command anyone to worship on the Sabbath, He commanded them to rest. You only derive at the requirement to worship by human reasoning not by an explicit commandment from God. Your whole argument revolves around the church following traditions of man over the commandments of God but that’s exactly what you’re doing.
Would you care to answer my previous question- do you think worship of our divine Creator is more worthy on the day God sanctified- set aside for holy use and blessed or a day God said to do common work and labor?

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Isaiah 66:2 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,”
says the Lord.

God's will for us is not different in heaven as it is on this earth.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Had they changed since Adam or Noah because the dietary laws for Adam were different from Noah which was also different from the Mosiac dietary laws.
Not from clean to unclean.
 
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BobRyan

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Opening Statement for Thunder Lauriston

Sunday Worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast
...
When Lauriston comes here to discuss it - I am happy to engage him on his ideas.
 
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BobRyan

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Had they changed since Adam or Noah because the dietary laws for Adam were different from Noah which was also different from the Mosiac dietary laws.
IN Eden it was all vegetarian... no killing.

In Gen 6-9 we see the distinction between clean and unclean animals.

In Acts 10 Peter makes the case that he has not been eating rats,cats,dogs,bats etc and is not planning to start doing so
 
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