Three predominant views of the salvific process.

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 7, 2019

I think there are four predominant views of the salvific process, that I like to illustrate metaphorically.

In all cases, we begin as adrift in the sea, in imminent danger of drowning, nothing to cling to.

God as the Happy Party Boat Pilot: God is merrily chugging along, really jolly and happy, because he's God, and upon our own initiative, with God not having anything to do with it besides providing a party boat, we can choose to swim to the party boat or not. The "good people" (people who choose to swim to the boat) all get to spend forever on the Happy Party Boat.

God as the laissez-Faire Lifeguard: God tosses out life preservers, willy-nilly, but it is up to us to swim toward them and grab them--and to pull ourselves in.

God as the Very Busy Lifeguard: God tosses out life preservers, to every single person, directly, accurately, bonking us all on the head, because otherwise we can't see the life preservers, since we're too egotistical and wrapped up on worldliness. It is up to each of us to accept that life preserver and let God haul us in. While it might be nice if we swim toward the boat with the life preserver, the distance is so great that it wouldn't make any difference without God doing the hauling.

God as the Dip Netter: God has a dip net. We can't avoid the net. We also can't swim toward the net, because we are all anchored to the bottom, barely staying afloat until we lose our meager strength and sink forever. God just dips up who He wants and lets everyone else drown. Nothing we do matters, for we can do nothing.

public hermit · Nov 7, 2019

Nice post! I heard a joke once that there are three kinds of mathematicians: those who can count and those who can't. There is a discrepancy between your post title and the number of possibilities you offer.

I like option 3: God as the Very Busy Lifeguard. Question: Is the implication for #3 universalism? Or, is the question left open because only God knows? Again, great post.

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 7, 2019

public hermit said:
Nice post! I heard a joke once that there are three kinds of mathematicians: those who can count and those who can't. There is a discrepancy between your post title and the number of possibilities you offer.

I like option 3: God as the Very Busy Lifeguard. Question: Is the implication for #3 universalism? Or, is the question left open because only God knows? Again, great post.

There is no guarantee that every person will respond to God's call. However, God has called all.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
There is no guarantee that every person will respond to God's call. However, God has called all.

Maybe not.
Not verified in Scripture ...

public hermit · Nov 7, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Maybe not.
Not verified in Scripture ...

Just curious, which option do you pick?

Halbhh · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
In all cases, we begin as adrift in the sea, in imminent danger of drowning, nothing to cling to.

This instantly brought to mind the OT scripture that uses exactly that very situation (from real life no doubt) to testify about the Salvation from the Lord to those in distress.

For your enjoyment!

Psalm 107 NIV
(though one could quote just the verses from 23-32 about that, the whole psalm is so wonderful)

1 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—
those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,
3those he gathered from the lands,
from east and west, from north and south. a
4Some wandered in desert wastelands,
finding no way to a city where they could settle.
5They were hungry and thirsty,
and their lives ebbed away.
6Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,
and he delivered them from their distress.
7He led them by a straight way
to a city where they could settle.
8Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
9for he satisfies the thirsty
and fills the hungry with good things.

10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,
11because they rebelled against God’s commands
and despised the plans of the Most High.
12So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
13Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
14He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness,
and broke away their chains.
15Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
16for he breaks down gates of bronze
and cuts through bars of iron.

17 Some became fools through their rebellious ways
and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
18They loathed all food
and drew near the gates of death.
19Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
20He sent out his word and healed them;
he rescued them from the grave.
21Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind.
22Let them sacrifice thank offerings
and tell of his works with songs of joy.

23 Some went out on the sea in ships;
they were merchants on the mighty waters.
24 They saw the works of the Lord,
his wonderful deeds in the deep.
25 For he spoke and stirred up a tempest
that lifted high the waves.
26 They mounted up to the heavens and went down to the depths;
in their peril their courage melted away.
27 They reeled and staggered like drunkards;
they were at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,
and he brought them out of their distress.
29 He stilled the storm to a whisper;
the waves of the sea were hushed.
30 They were glad when it grew calm,
and he guided them to their desired haven.
31 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind.
32 Let them exalt him in the assembly of the people
and praise him in the council of the elders.

(continues wonderfully!...)

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
God as the Happy Party Boat Pilot: God is merrily chugging along, really jolly and happy, because he's God, and upon our own initiative, with God not having anything to do with it besides providing a party boat, we can choose to swim to the party boat or not. The "good people" (people who choose to swim to the boat) all get to spend forever on the Happy Party Boat.

I'll go along a bit here -- In this view, are the people who get into the Happy Party Boat, required not to jump out of it ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 7, 2019

public hermit said:
Just curious, which option do you pick?

None of the above. I think Israelites knew a better way, and some Ekklesia today also ... Don't know if it can be put in words though, but just a few quotes from Scripture to illustrate, perhaps...
(sometime today, Yahuweh Willing)

BryanJohnMaloney · Nov 7, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I'll go along a bit here -- In this view, are the people who get into the Happy Party Boat, required not to jump out of it ?

Well, there are two schools of thought on that.

Paternalistic Happy Party Boaters say that once on, you can't leave.
Vindictive Happy Party Boaters say that you can jump off, but then you're not allowed back on.
Happy Hippy Happy Party Boaters say jump off, jump on, jump off, jump on!

Halbhh · Nov 7, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
Well, there are two schools of thought on that.

Paternalistic Happy Party Boaters say that once on, you can't leave.
Vindictive Happy Party Boaters say that you can jump off, but then you're not allowed back on.
Happy Hippy Happy Party Boaters say jump off, jump on, jump off, jump on!

If one feels they need to know, I'd suggest go with the kind of sure thing indicator if available, if there is a direct answer in scripture (as there is for some things), therefore I'd go with the Psalm above to tell me some things about the overall process in the reality (instead of only the alternative ideas folks came up with). But, I'm perfectly content to know also there will be some mysteries about some things, ala the wording in Isaiah chapter 55, that His ways and thoughts are above ours as high as the heavens are from the Earth.

Another fine thing to know about though is "God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble" (!)
Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
Well, there are two schools of thought on that.

Paternalistic Happy Party Boaters say that once on, you can't leave.
Vindictive Happy Party Boaters say that you can jump off, but then you're not allowed back on.
Happy Hippy Happy Party Boaters say jump off, jump on, jump off, jump on!

I think what you are trying to say is that a believer cannot be lost and then saved again. But we do see this truth expressed in Scripture. When the Prodigal Son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, the father said that he was "dead" and he is now "alive again." This is speaking in spiritual terms (See: Luke 15:11-32). For the son was dead spiritually when spending his money on prostitutes, and he became alive again spiritually when he sought forgiveness with his father. I mean, think about that for a second. On your boat, there can potentially be on God's happy boat within a section of it where believers can indulge in prostitutes. That is what you must believe in order for a person not to be lost while they commit grievous sin against GOD. James 5:19-20 also talks about the same truth in the Parable of the Prodigal Son in that you can lose salvation, and then regain it back again. James 5:19-20 says that the faithful believer who converts back to the faith that unfaithful believer to following Christ again by getting them to seek forgiveness with the Lord should know that they have helped to save a soul from spiritual death, and they have helped to hide a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately, most of Christianity believes as you do in the fact that salvation cannot be lost and regained again. But if this is the case, then we do not need to worry about sin and or in living for Jesus. We can just float along with no care in the world. We got Jesus! So we can then live however we please.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 26, 2019

No party spirit:
PHILIPPIANS 2:3 KJV "[Let] nothing [be done] through strife ...

PHILIPPIANS 2:3 KJV "[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better..."
People's Bible Notes for Philippians 2:3. Php 2:3 [Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory. No party spirit or striving for human praise. In lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Instead of exalting himself, each is to exalt others in his esteem. He that is willing to serve is greatest.

BryanJohnMaloney said:
Well, there are two schools of thought on that.

Paternalistic Happy Party Boaters say that once on, you can't leave.
Vindictive Happy Party Boaters say that you can jump off, but then you're not allowed back on.
Happy Hippy Happy Party Boaters say jump off, jump on, jump off, jump on!

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 26, 2019

public hermit said:
Just curious, which option do you pick?

Did you read the options ?!
(I just now went to and did)
Not one of them seems at all Scriptural to me.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2019

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it.
Most do not want to go the narrow way in following Jesus.
Most just want to think they can sin and still be saved on some level.

public hermit · Nov 26, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Did you read the options ?!
(I just now went to and did)
Not one of them seems at all Scriptural to me.

I don't know, Jeff. We have to interpret the scriptures. I took each of those options as one way of interpreting how salvation works. Right? They are various takes on a metaphor: Humanity is drowning in a sea of sin, God is captain of the life saving boat...How does the life saving activity of God work? I thought it was clever and interesting.

But, maybe you mean the scriptural view of salvation is not captured by any of the options. What would be an option that captures the scriptural view, then?

renniks · Nov 26, 2019

I'll take option #3. Am I right? What do I win if I'm right?

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 26, 2019

public hermit said:
We have to interpret the scriptures.

Seems a lot of people seem that this disobedienct act is needed, required, or desired or beneficial. Instead, Seek First God's Kingdom and His (Way) Righteousness - vs man's religion, man's kingdom, man's good or righteous thoughts (as if)....

The view of salvation in God's Word is simple, wise, pure , 'gentle'(sometimes though "a sword/ not peace/ as we get separated from everything) ....
as written. That's a key, or one key, or the key, as well as "as revealed by God" - as HE gives understanding - He gladly Reveals His Meaning to all those who are like little children, and of course, obviously, HE KNOWS what HE MEANS, ALL the time. So He is the one to seek Wisdom and Knowledge of the Truth, experiential knowledge and revelation as He Says in His Word.

public hermit · Nov 26, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Seems a lot of people seem that this disobedienct act is needed, required, or desired or beneficial. Instead, Seek First God's Kingdom and His (Way) Righteousness - vs man's religion, man's kingdom, man's good or righteous thoughts (as if)....

The view of salvation in God's Word is simple, wise, pure , 'gentle'(sometimes though "a sword/ not peace/ as we get separated from everything) ....
as written. That's a key, or one key, or the key, as well as "as revealed by God" - as HE gives understanding - He gladly Reveals His Meaning to all those who are like little children, and of course, obviously, HE KNOWS what HE MEANS, ALL the time. So He is the one to seek Wisdom and Knowledge of the Truth, experiential knowledge and revelation as He Says in His Word.

Jeff, you have a special way with words.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 26, 2019

public hermit said:
Jeff, you have a special way with words.

Actually, a lot is not posted as clearly and simply and straightforwardly as would be nice... (better or not) , because of the rules and conditions and emotinos of the readers .... which do not change the truth at all, but do change, censor, and restrict what can be posted.

public hermit · Nov 26, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Actually, a lot is not posted as clearly and simply and straightforwardly as would be nice... (better or not) , because of the rules and conditions and emotinos of the readers .... which do not change the truth at all, but do change, censor, and restrict what can be posted.

I'm just playing with you. You do your thing. I believe your heart is in the right place, I just have a hard time, sometimes, deciphering what you're saying. It can take me a bit to catch on.

Three predominant views of the salvific process.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

social troglodyte

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