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Thousands... Not Billions

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FallingWaters

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I just received my new DVD and layperson's book yesterday-
Thousands... Not Billions by Dr. Don DeYoung.

I watched the DVD. My 16 year old son understood it better than I did.

Haven't started the book. I got them both from ICR for $25 including the shipping! Anybody else got one? Want to talk about it?
 

FallingWaters

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Yes. Apparently, one of the most astounding things they discovered was the presence of Carbon-14 in diamonds.

Diamonds are assumed to be at least a billion years old, and so it's been assumed they are entirely free of C-14 because it's a relatively short-lived radioisotope. However, carbon-14 atoms were found in every diamond tested!

This is one of the greatest indicators that the earth truly is only thousands of years old, not billions!
 
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busterdog

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I just received my new DVD and layperson's book yesterday-
Thousands... Not Billions by Dr. Don DeYoung.

I watched the DVD. My 16 year old son understood it better than I did.

Haven't started the book. I got them both from ICR for $25 including the shipping! Anybody else got one? Want to talk about it?
I can see that this indicates: 1. C14 is not a reliable measure; 2. geology is not a reliable science for age dating rocks of most any type.

But, does it really mean a 6,000 year old earth is "indicated" by the C14 in diamonds?

Just refresh me. WOuld the halflife of C14 supposedly lead to its complete decay within 1 B years?
 
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laptoppop

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I can see that this indicates: 1. C14 is not a reliable measure; 2. geology is not a reliable science for age dating rocks of most any type.

But, does it really mean a 6,000 year old earth is "indicated" by the C14 in diamonds?

Just refresh me. WOuld the halflife of C14 supposedly lead to its complete decay within 1 B years?
No, what is indicated by the measurable presence of C14 in diamonds is not a definitive dating of the earth, but a demonstration that the earth cannot be older than something like 50,000-60,000 years. The next question is how old IS the earth - this gives an upper bound, but does not answer that question.

The answering argument is that the carbon 14 in the diamond is due to radioactivity converting nitrogen in the diamond into c14. However, I just found an article that shows how that doesn't work out because the amount of radioactivity that would take is extreme: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4650/
 
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busterdog

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No, what is indicated by the measurable presence of C14 in diamonds is not a definitive dating of the earth, but a demonstration that the earth cannot be older than something like 50,000-60,000 years. The next question is how old IS the earth - this gives an upper bound, but does not answer that question.

The answering argument is that the carbon 14 in the diamond is due to radioactivity converting nitrogen in the diamond into c14. However, I just found an article that shows how that doesn't work out because the amount of radioactivity that would take is extreme: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4650/
Being a philosophical luddite, I can appreciate how the apparatus of convention has been smashed, but the argument that this proves the age of anything just seems a little circular. I had a look at the other thread.

Are we assuming that diamond must be created at certain phase of creation?
.
 
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keyarch

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Yes. Apparently, one of the most astounding things they discovered was the presence of Carbon-14 in diamonds.

Diamonds are assumed to be at least a billion years old, and so it's been assumed they are entirely free of C-14 because it's a relatively short-lived radioisotope. However, carbon-14 atoms were found in every diamond tested!

This is one of the greatest indicators that the earth truly is only thousands of years old, not billions!
All this means is that the geologic process that created diamonds may be of a young age. It does not determine the age of the minerals before the metamorphic process.

ICR and the RATE project start with the idea that EVERYTHING in the universe is around 6k years and then tries to point out errors in dating methods. I say they have the Biblical interpretation wrong and that causes problems too.

If they would accept that the universe and the globe were of an unknown age prior to the 6 days of creation, it would change a lot of their arguments for the better. And guess what, that model is based on a literal Genesis.
 
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vossler

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I just received my new DVD and layperson's book yesterday-
Thousands... Not Billions by Dr. Don DeYoung.

I watched the DVD. My 16 year old son understood it better than I did.

Haven't started the book. I got them both from ICR for $25 including the shipping! Anybody else got one? Want to talk about it?
Don't have one, but I do have an inquisitive 15 year old myself. :D

How long is it and I take it that the DVD comes with a book? Is the book full length or just a pamphlet?

BTW, it's good to see you again. :)
 
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FallingWaters

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Don't have one, but I do have an inquisitive 15 year old myself. :D

How long is it and I take it that the DVD comes with a book? Is the book full length or just a pamphlet?

BTW, it's good to see you again. :)
Hey! :wave:

The DVD is 48 minutes. It begins with a little intro skit, and then features each of the RATE scientists explaining their findings, at length. It also has other shorter features of 4-8 minutes as each of the RATE scientists provide a brief synopsis of their findings, and also some diagrams with formulae that frankly is over my head since I was never good in algebra or calculus. The DVD is $20.

The book is a full-length book in non-technical terms for laymen... about 200 pages with about 40 illustrations and graphs. The book is $14.

ICR was having a special when I called, and I got both for $25 including the shipping!

I wanted to get this new information because I know my kids get a lot of information at school that opposes young earth ideas. I have a 13 year old who also understood the data better than I did. Both of my sons are in advanced math.
 
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FallingWaters

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All this means is that the geologic process that created diamonds may be of a young age. It does not determine the age of the minerals before the metamorphic process.

ICR and the RATE project start with the idea that EVERYTHING in the universe is around 6k years and then tries to point out errors in dating methods. I say they have the Biblical interpretation wrong and that causes problems too.

If they would accept that the universe and the globe were of an unknown age prior to the 6 days of creation, it would change a lot of their arguments for the better. And guess what, that model is based on a literal Genesis.
I don't see how that's any different from a scientist who believes the earth is billions of years old looking at the data and saying, "Now how can I make this evidence fit into my billions of years time frame?" To me it's the same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
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vossler

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Hey! :wave:

The DVD is 48 minutes. It begins with a little intro skit, and then features each of the RATE scientists explaining their findings, at length. It also has other shorter features of 4-8 minutes as each of the RATE scientists provide a brief synopsis of their findings, and also some diagrams with formulae that frankly is over my head since I was never good in algebra or calculus. The DVD is $20.

The book is a full-length book in non-technical terms for laymen... about 200 pages with about 40 illustrations and graphs. The book is $14.

ICR was having a special when I called, and I got both for $25 including the shipping!

I wanted to get this new information because I know my kids get a lot of information at school that opposes young earth ideas. I have a 13 year old who also understood the data better than I did. Both of my sons are in advanced math.
Thanks, I'm going to have to order that myself, I especially liked the fact that it wasn't highly technical, some of us laymen get glazed over eyes watching someone do math on tv. :eek:

Not only that, sounds like a good deal to boot! :thumbsup:
 
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keyarch

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I don't see how that's any different from a scientist who believes the earth is billions of years old looking at the data and saying, "Now how can I make this evidence fit into my billions of years time frame?" To me it's the same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Good point. It may not be any different, other than letting the evidence speak for itself. In other words, rather than try and prove that light was at a different speed in the past to account for a young universe, one can say "It doesn't matter how old it is, there is no change to my Biblical model". Things like earth's orbit around the sun, the moon's around earth etc. can be shown to be young, but that doesn't automatically imply that the foundational minerals of earth are.
What I'm trying to point out is that both sides seam to take an all old or all young stance based on their world view, and that there is another model that is biblical which is both old and young that may fit the data better and let it speak for itself rather than try and twist it into either one of the extremes.
 
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busterdog

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I don't see how that's any different from a scientist who believes the earth is billions of years old looking at the data and saying, "Now how can I make this evidence fit into my billions of years time frame?" To me it's the same thing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Indeed. I think the 6K figure can be made to be a plausible as anything, which is a far cry from proof. The fact that all this stuff on both sides is so improbable says alot about our ability to know anything and the need to lean upon the Lord with great humility in these areas.
 
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keyarch

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Indeed. I think the 6K figure can be made to be a plausible as anything, which is a far cry from proof. The fact that all this stuff on both sides is so improbable says alot about our ability to know anything and the need to lean upon the Lord with great humility in these areas.
I'm curious which things you think are improbable on the creationist side. Here's a short list for reference:
1. That around 6,120 years ago, the main continents were elevated above the seas from a previously water covered globe.
2. That around 6,120 years ago, ALL organic material and all the original "kinds" of plants and animials were created within a four day period.
3. That based on #2 dinosaurs were contemporaries with man.
4. That around 4463 years ago, there was a global flood that wiped out all land creatures except those upon Noah's ark. (some also contend that the mid-ocean ridges are the referenced "fountains of the deep" and the source for the water)
5. That most layers of sedimentary rock are the result of the global flood and the subsequent mudflows from unstable soils.

As a creationist, I happen to believe that everything in the list above is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I have never seen any evidence that has shown (without assumptions) any of these things to be false. So when you say that "The fact that all this stuff on both sides is so improbable" I'm curious what, and why you feel that way.
 
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busterdog

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I'm curious which things you think are improbable on the creationist side. Here's a short list for reference:
1. That around 6,120 years ago, the main continents were elevated above the seas from a previously water covered globe.
2. That around 6,120 years ago, ALL organic material and all the original "kinds" of plants and animials were created within a four day period.
3. That based on #2 dinosaurs were contemporaries with man.
4. That around 4463 years ago, there was a global flood that wiped out all land creatures except those upon Noah's ark. (some also contend that the mid-ocean ridges are the referenced "fountains of the deep" and the source for the water)
5. That most layers of sedimentary rock are the result of the global flood and the subsequent mudflows from unstable soils.

As a creationist, I happen to believe that everything in the list above is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I have never seen any evidence that has shown (without assumptions) any of these things to be false. So when you say that "The fact that all this stuff on both sides is so improbable" I'm curious what, and why you feel that way.
Here is a little outline of me:

1. In a post-fall world, I am just very sceptical about science when it comes to ulimate conclusions, though it is very handy on lots of less ambitious things.

2. The ability to "know" is, like strength, tied to the willingness to receive from the Lord. Scientific brilliance is nice, but not the essential kind of trust we are called to. "Knowledge" of how needs are satisfied, sickness healed, sin forgiven, the world mended and the enemy defeated are such redically different kinds of things than "proving" six days of creation by science, I lean less on science. EG, knowing how God made manna was irrelvant and unexplained.

3. There is lots of corroborating evidence of YEC. But, it is spotty, since it is a big planet with lots of unexplored geology. A coal seam in Montana may have some facinating things, but then, what about those limestone caverns that may need more time to erode or the many hectares of water-eroded peaks in China that don't seem to have a point source to account for the erosion or enough time for the rain to do it?

4. I also just plain get tired of tit for tat between TE and YEC -- perhaps the Lord anticipated that as well when He made Himself the Word and wisdom itself. You say what about this tree in a coal seam and they say what about this varve in Japan? Enough already.

5. Some of the creation science points to things like the Big Bang, in terms of the energies involved and the bizarre calculations needed to model the event. If you can't really model it with any probability, do you really have any business saying that you know, by science, that it happened in six days?

6. Quite frankly, this way of constructing the problem is self-serving for YEC. It creates a stanard that TE can't meet, but which God can. (But, that doesn't mean it is wrong. )

7. I am just not as up on some of the science as you seem to be. Your first few points are just foreign to me.

8. Doubting science also is a little more compatible with not taking yourself too seriously -- and may I never be accused of taking my self too seriously! You can kind of snipe and jest a little more easily when you question the reliability of just about everything.
 
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FallingWaters

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... 4. I also just plain get tired of tit for tat between TE and YEC -- perhaps the Lord anticipated that as well when He made Himself the Word and wisdom itself. You say what about this tree in a coal seam and they say what about this varve in Japan? Enough already.
Amen, brother! I FEEL your PAIN!:thumbsup:
 
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TheScientist89

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I'm curious which things you think are improbable on the creationist side. Here's a short list for reference:
1. That around 6,120 years ago, the main continents were elevated above the seas from a previously water covered globe.
2. That around 6,120 years ago, ALL organic material and all the original "kinds" of plants and animials were created within a four day period.
3. That based on #2 dinosaurs were contemporaries with man.
4. That around 4463 years ago, there was a global flood that wiped out all land creatures except those upon Noah's ark. (some also contend that the mid-ocean ridges are the referenced "fountains of the deep" and the source for the water)
5. That most layers of sedimentary rock are the result of the global flood and the subsequent mudflows from unstable soils.

As a creationist, I happen to believe that everything in the list above is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I have never seen any evidence that has shown (without assumptions) any of these things to be false. So when you say that "The fact that all this stuff on both sides is so improbable" I'm curious what, and why you feel that way.
Excuse me while I repeatedly bang my head against a wall. Humans coexisted with dinosaurs? As science moves forward the fundamentalists have to resort to more and more ludicrous suggestions. Human understanding generally goes forward not backwards! Humans and dinosaurs only coexist in really rubbish cartoons.

My response to all of the points you make there is PROVE IT.
 
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vossler

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Excuse me while I repeatedly bang my head against a wall. Humans coexisted with dinosaurs? As science moves forward the fundamentalists have to resort to more and more ludicrous suggestions. Human understanding generally goes forward not backwards! Humans and dinosaurs only coexist in really rubbish cartoons.
I would suggest you do a little research into this before hurting yourself any further. There are countless documented drawings of dinosaurs and people together on cave walls and pottery that I've seen. I wasn't even looking for such information, if I was I'm sure I could find even more. It's only a ludicrous suggestion if your mind is already closed, I would submit if it is it's because you've bought into something without first checking all the facts.
 
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