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Thoughts on Mary

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Hoonbaba

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Hey guys,

I was on amazon.com and I saw a review which caught my attention.  I was wondering if anyone can contribute their thoughts on the following review.  I'll quote it here in full:

whoops....I just realized I pasted the wrong review!!  sorry about that! here's the real one I wanted to share

----------------------------------------------

I share a number of similarities with Scott Hahn. In may ways I have had a similar spiritual pilgrimage to him. We even attended the same American Protestant seminary - Gordon Conwell in Boston. He graduated with highest honors a few years before I graduated with highest honors. But whereas he converted from Evangelicalism to Catholicism, I have remained in the Evangelical camp. So this review reflects some major theological differences.

At the outset it can be said that Roman Catholics will (or should) like this book. It is an impressive defense of the veneration to Mary afforded by the Catholic church. As a convert to Catholicism, Hahn is both a passionate and an articulate defender of Catholic doctrinal teaching. And as a former Evangelical apologist, he is a skilled debater and thoroughly conversant with the biblical and theological issues at stake.

What does a Protestant make of his work? As can be imagined, differences of opinion will abound. One key issue is that of authority. Protestants tend to look to Scripture as the final word of authority. Thus the doctrine of Mary, like any other, is judged from that basis.

Hahn argues that Mary "fills the pages of Scripture"; that "Marion types abound in the Old Testament"; and Mary can readily be found in passages such as Rev. 11 and 12.

But except for Acts 1:14, Mary is mentioned nowhere else outside of the gospels., and no clear Marion types exist. And many Patristic interpreters regarded Rev. 12 as referring to the church, not Mary. Indeed, the idea that it refers to Mary and her assumption does not seem to be held by any of the early fathers. Likewise, the doctrine of the immaculate conception does not appear until the fifth century (and was rejected by Anselm, and Aquinas, among others).

Hahn also attempts to prove that Mary is the "mother of God". But when the fifth-century fathers used the phrase, it was in order to uphold Christ's deity, and only later did it become a title to uphold honor to Mary. At Chalcedon for example "theotokos" (God-bearer) was used, but the supplementary phrase by Cyril, "mater theou" (Mother of God) was rejected.

He also argues that Mary was a perpetual virgin and that Jesus had no brothers or sisters. Concerning the former, biblical support is sorely lacking. Even, the late Catholic NT scholar Raymond Brown can speak of the "dubious methodology of assuming without proof Lucan knowledge of Mary's lifetime virginity".

He claims that the references to brothers and sisters actually refer to cousins.. But as Brown says, this is "a thesis that in truth faces enormous difficulties". And Roman Catholic scholar J.P. Meier argues that "from a purely philological and historical point of view, the most probable opinion is that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were his siblings".

Nowhere in the NT does the word adelphos (brother) mean cousin. Indeed, the NT has another word, anepsios which is used for cousin (eg., Col. 4:10). While adelphos can mean relative, the contexts in the gospels make blood brother the logical usage.

Hahn also makes much of passages like Luke 1:42 where Elizabeth exclaims: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" But in the OT there are similar descriptions. In Judges 5:24 we find the prophet Deborah praising Jael: "Blessed be Jael among women". And in the apocryphal Judith 13:18 Uzzziah says of Judith, "Blest of God Most High are you, daughter, above all the women of the earth".

Appeal is also made to Luke 1:48 where Mary says,. "From now on all generations will call me blessed". But as Catholic scholar Joseph Fitzmyer explains, this is "not because of any intrinsic, personal holiness or merit, but because of him whom she is bearing". And again, it is not unique to Mary. A similar phrase can be found in the case of Leah: "How blessed I am! All women will count me blessed" (Gen. 30:13).

As Brown puts it, "This OT background suggests that Mary's blessing is not purely a personal one. She has a role in God's plan for His people because she has conceived the Messiah who will be the glory of Israel (Luke 2:32)".

Indeed, Jesus at times seems to rebuke his mother or claims made about her. For example: "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it'." (Luke 11:27-28)

Hahn maintains that the word translated "rather" can be used in different senses. Yes, but most careful NT scholars recognise that here it is being used as a correction or modification. If Jesus wanted on this occasion to elevate Mary, he could clearly have chosen less ambiguous terminology.

And consider John 2:3-4: "And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus said to him, 'They have no wine'. Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what have I to do with you?' My hour is not yet come." Hahn says these words do "not signify reproach or disrespect" However, the use of the formula is one that conveys disagreement, with the point in question being disputed. Indeed, the idiom always denotes a distance between the two parties.

Other objections could be raised. But as I said, Catholics will find this a welcome addition to the growing arsenal of Catholic apologetics (of which Hahn has been a major contributor). Protestants will find much of interest here, and some may be persuaded. But many will remain unconvinced. But the debate is worth pursuing, and Hahn has positioned himself as a formidable defender of his new found faith. For both sides of the debate, anyone interested in the subject of Mary will find this a stimulating and challenging book.

----------------------------------------------

Thanks in advance! =)

-Jason
 

Hoonbaba

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Hahn argues that Mary "fills the pages of Scripture"; that "Marion types abound in the Old Testament"; and Mary can readily be found in passages such as Rev. 11 and 12.

But except for Acts 1:14, Mary is mentioned nowhere else outside of the gospels., and no clear Marion types exist. And many Patristic interpreters regarded Rev. 12 as referring to the church, not Mary. Indeed, the idea that it refers to Mary and her assumption does not seem to be held by any of the early fathers. Likewise, the doctrine of the immaculate conception does not appear until the fifth century (and was rejected by Anselm, and Aquinas, among others).
 

While Mary's name is mentioned once outside of the gospels, I think Hahn's point was entirely on the fact that Mary's role is implied throughout scripture.  What's interesting though is that he doesn't tear apart Hahn's arguments using scripture, he simply supports his arguments using commentaries, which are not scripture.  In anycase, I think Mary's role is implied in Gen 3:15 and taken together with Rev 11:19-12:1 and the parallels between 2 Sam 6 & Luke 1, the connections give a strong reason to believe that the Woman in Revelation 12 is Mary.

I'm surprised how the reviewer didn't address the connections.

Can anyone else address any of the other things like 'mother of God' or 'perpetual virginity'?

-Jason
 
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ZooMom

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Indeed, Jesus at times seems to rebuke his mother or claims made about her. For example: "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it'." (Luke 11:27-28)

I get so tired of seeing this statement. Why do people insist that Jesus is putting His mom down in this passage, when in actuality He is lifting her higher than the woman in the crowd did! The woman is praising Mary's physical attributes, while Christ is redirecting her praise to Mary's spiritual attributes. When He said, "Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it." He was still talking about Mary!!

Ok. Sorry. Had to rant. :sorry:
 
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Axion

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This "review" sounds like an excuse for the usual fundamentalist "Mary-bashing" to me.

many Patristic interpreters regarded Rev. 12 as referring to the church, not Mary. Indeed, the idea that it refers to Mary and her assumption does not seem to be held by any of the early fathers. Likewise, the doctrine of the immaculate conception does not appear until the fifth century (and was rejected by Anselm, and Aquinas, among others).


This is somewhat dishonest. Epiphanius certainly connected Mary with Revelation 12. And just because a couple of Fathers saw the Church in Revelation 12 in no way contradicts the Marian interpretation. Much of the imagery of Revelation has multiple layers of meaning. The Marian view is the clear simple reading of the text, and is confirmed by the single other occasion that a "great sign" of a woman giving birth is mentioned in the bible - Isaiah 7.14 - which no-one denies refers to Mary.

This character then says that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not appear till the fifth century. What he fails to mention is that the Doctrine of Original Sin did not appear until then either! Since one doctrine requires the other - this "delay" is not surprising. Add to this that Augustine specifically excludes Mary from the doctrine of Original Sin that he defined, and we see a severe case of negative spin.

Again, Mary's sinlessness is an older doctrine than even Original Sin. When Aquinas and Anselm argued against the Immaculate Conception - as anti-Catholics gleefully assert, they always fail to mention that Aquinas and his followers held firmly to Mary's sinlessness, which is what fundamentalists want to imply they opposed. Their only argument was about precisely when Mary was made sinless.

Hahn also attempts to prove that Mary is the "mother of God". But when the fifth-century fathers used the phrase, it was in order to uphold Christ's deity, and only later did it become a title to uphold honor to Mary.
Silly argument. Either the title is correct or it isn't. If the title is correct then appropriate honour is due. The imagined intentions of the fathers of Ephesus are irrelevant.

He also argues that Mary was a perpetual virgin and that Jesus had no brothers or sisters. Concerning the former, biblical support is sorely lacking. Even, the late Catholic NT scholar Raymond Brown can speak of the "dubious methodology of assuming without proof Lucan knowledge of Mary's lifetime virginity".

He claims that the references to brothers and sisters actually refer to cousins.. But as Brown says, this is "a thesis that in truth faces enormous difficulties". And Roman Catholic scholar J.P. Meier argues that "from a purely philological and historical point of view, the most probable opinion is that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were his siblings".

Here's another good trick. Find a supposed "Catholic " of dubious orthodoxy, and quote his view as an authority - so long as it disagrees with the Catholic position. Anyone, however obscure, who has once been a Catholic, or written something down on paper, will do, and instantly becomes a "Catholic Scholar." By such reckoning, Calvin was a Catholic Scholar. Strangely enough, ten thousand Catholic scholars who support the Church position are dismissed as worthless, and of no witness or authority whatsoever...

So, so far we are presented with only the unsupported view of a certain JP Meier that Apostolic tradition is wrong, and that the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus were actual siblings.

Nowhere in the NT does the word adelphos (brother) mean cousin. Indeed, the NT has another word, anepsios which is used for cousin (eg., Col. 4:10). While adelphos can mean relative, the contexts in the gospels make blood brother the logical usage.


This is nonsense. The writer is claiming that "adelphos" never means cousin, because, in his opinion, it never means cousin! Actually, as he admits, Adelphos CAN mean relative - or kinsman. It is often used in the NT for any fellow Christians. And in Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus and the inhabitants of palestine, there was no word for Cousin. "Brother" was used for all kinsmen. This is clear from the Old Testament, where this usage occurs. The Greeks had a word for Cousin, yes. But the Jews did not - so "brother" (kinsman) got translated into Greek as the more specific "brother" (sibling).

It can also be demonstrated from scripture that the named "brothers" of Jesus were the sons of Mary of Clopas, a "sister" (kinswoman) of the Virgin Mary.

Hahn also makes much of passages like Luke 1:42 where Elizabeth exclaims: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" But in the OT there are similar descriptions. In Judges 5:24 we find the prophet Deborah praising Jael: "Blessed be Jael among women". And in the apocryphal Judith 13:18 Uzzziah says of Judith, "Blest of God Most High are you, daughter, above all the women of the earth".

Appeal is also made to Luke 1:48 where Mary says,. "From now on all generations will call me blessed". But as Catholic scholar Joseph Fitzmyer explains, this is "not because of any intrinsic, personal holiness or merit, but because of him whom she is bearing". And again, it is not unique to Mary. A similar phrase can be found in the case of Leah: "How blessed I am! All women will count me blessed" (Gen. 30:13).

Why anyone would want to argue against Mary being blessed is beyond me - but this is where fundamentalist logic takes people.

Again the writer relies on a supposed special revelation about heavenly intentions apparently given to (yet another) "Catholic Scholar", Fitzmyer.

Actually in the NEW TESTAMENT, all those who are called "Blessed" are in receipt of great heavenly reward.

1.) Only Mary is called "Blessed" three times in the Bible, another mark of uniqueness and special favour.

2.) Only Mary is called "Full of Grace" as a title. (Kecharitomene)

3.) In the OT those quoted are often seen as types or precursors of Mary. The word "blessed" is used more commonly in the OT to simply mean "happy". This is how it is translated in some versions.

And consider John 2:3-4: "And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus said to him, 'They have no wine'. Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what have I to do with you?' My hour is not yet come." Hahn says these words do "not signify reproach or disrespect" However, the use of the formula is one that conveys disagreement, with the point in question being disputed. Indeed, the idiom always denotes a distance between the two parties.

It is funny that all some Protestant commentators can get out of this passage is an implied rebuke. The literal word-for-word translation of Jesus's words is "What is that to thee and to me"?
"What have I to do with you?" is very tenuous and does not make sense in the context.

So what else is there to see in this story, that our fundamentalist friend seems to miss...

Just look at WHY this apparently trivial event is recorded in the gospels. It happens at a key point in Jesus's ministry. It is the first public miracle. It is a snapshot of the relationship between Jesus and Mary. It shows that -
1.Mary noted others' needs and interceded, drawing them to the attention of Jesus.

2. Jesus took notice of Mary's intercession and seems to change His decision on whether or not to intervene. As John 2.11 shows, this is NOT a trivial incident. It becomes "the first of His miraculous signs," where He "revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."

3. Mary tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them, guiding them to place their confidence and faith in Jesus. As we have seen, this confidence and faith extended to the first disciples.

Strange that all fundamentalists seem to get out of it is an imagined rebuke.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Yesterday at 07:22 PM ZooMom said this in Post #5

Indeed, Jesus at times seems to rebuke his mother or claims made about her. For example: "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it'." (Luke 11:27-28)

I get so tired of seeing this statement. Why do people insist that Jesus is putting His mom down in this passage, when in actuality He is lifting her higher than the woman in the crowd did! The woman is praising Mary's physical attributes, while Christ is redirecting her praise to Mary's spiritual attributes. When He said, "Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it." He was still talking about Mary!!

Ok. Sorry. Had to rant. :sorry:

Wow....somehow i completely missed that interpretation!! =)

Thanks for sharing!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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What does a Protestant make of his work? As can be imagined, differences of opinion will abound. One key issue is that of authority. Protestants tend to look to Scripture as the final word of authority. Thus the doctrine of Mary, like any other, is judged from that basis.

I just noticed this.  It's funny how the reviewer said that the basis on judging the doctrine of Mary is based solely on scripture.  Yet, he uses all sorts of commentaries by the fathers, Raymond Brown, and Fitzmeyer, etc as if they are some how added to scripture.  Of course fundies would say that these comments give good reason to believe that Catholics are wrong, but they're using non-biblical texts to defend their position. 

Interesting..isn't it? ;)

-Jason
 
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Caedmon

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Yesterday at 09:15 AM Hoonbaba said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=694514#post694514)

I just noticed this.  It's funny how the reviewer said that the basis on judging the doctrine of Mary is based solely on scripture.  Yet, he uses all sorts of commentaries by the fathers, Raymond Brown, and Fitzmeyer, etc as if they are some how added to scripture.  Of course fundies would say that these comments give good reason to believe that Catholics are wrong, but they're using non-biblical texts to defend their position. 

Interesting..isn't it? ;)

Yep... darn "traditions of men"... ;)
 
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Axion

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6th March 2003 at 03:09 PM Hoonbaba said this in Post #8 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=694505#post694505)

Hi Axion,

Thanks for sharing your comments!  They were very helpful.  But I'm curious about "What is that to thee and to me"?

In context to John 2, what exactly does that mean?

God bless!

-Jason

Glad to help in any way.

To me, "What is that to thee and to me"? must be taken with Jesus's following words "My time has not yet come" to imply that initially He does not feel that He should begin His public ministry by intervening at this point to solve the wine problem.

As we see later in this passage, He DOES do this, and so begins His public ministry. So the passage has always been a source of some controversy. Did He change His mind in response to Mary's intercession? Or is there some other layer of meaning here?
 
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